Discussion:
The Murderous Lies of Bush, Blair and the Jew Cabal
(too old to reply)
Awake
2003-10-06 17:47:29 UTC
Permalink
The Times of London has now printed evidence that Blair admitted that Saddam
had no WMD before the war began as was stated by he and Bush as reason for
the illegal invasion of Iraq which has now resulted in the worst quagmire for America
since Vietnam.

Another soldier has been killed on Saturday and another seriously wounded.

The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318 and the wounded -which consist of
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.

The casualties are mounting faster. By this time next year -and our lying scumbag
leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue through next year- the casualty
count will number at least 5,000.

For what?

The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal the Palestinians land.

This is what the illegal invasion is all about. The missing arms, legs, eyes and lives
are all so the Jews can continue to steal Palestinian land and continue murdering
Palestinians.

When will the Jews in high places be held accountable for their murderous behavior?

Why have Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other "neoCONservative" Jews
disappeared from public view and public discussion?


"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq
and Cook received cries of 'hear, hear' from cabinet colleagues when he argued
that Arab governments regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle
East. Cook records it was 'the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet'."



October 05, 2003

Blair 'knew Iraq had no WMD'
David Cracknell, Political Editor



TONY BLAIR privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam
Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook, the
former foreign secretary, reveals today.

John Scarlett, chairman of the joint intelligence committee (JIC), also
"assented" that Saddam had no such weapons, says Cook.

His revelations, taken from a diary that he kept as a senior minister during
the months leading up to war, are published today in The Sunday Times. They
shatter the case for war put forward by the government that Iraq presented "a
real and present danger" to Britain.

Cook, who resigned shortly before the invasion of Iraq, also reveals there was
a near mutiny in the cabinet, triggered by David Blunkett, the home secretary,
when it first discussed military action against Iraq.

The prime minister ignored the "large number of ministers who spoke up against
the war", according to Cook. He also "deliberately crafted a suggestive
phrasing" to mislead the public into thinking there was a link between Iraq
and Al-Qaeda, and he did not want United Nations weapons inspections to be
successful, writes the former cabinet minister.

Cook suggests that the government misled the House of Commons and asked MPs to
vote for war on a "false prospectus".

He also reveals that Blair earlier gave President Bill Clinton a private
assurance that he would support him in military action in Iraq if action in
the UN failed "and it would certainly have been in line with his previous
practice if he had given President Bush a private assurance of British
support".

Cook's long-awaited diaries, published in book form as Point of Departure, are
the first memoir of any member of Blair's cabinet. His disclosures are likely
to lead to renewed calls for a judicial inquiry into the legitimacy of the
war.

The Hutton inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly has dealt only with the
question of what the government believed ahead of publication of its Iraq
dossier in September 2002 and whether Downing Street hardened intelligence
reports to make the threat from Saddam seem more compelling.

Cook today opens a new controversy. He says that just days before sending
troops into action, Blair no longer believed Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes, the claim the prime minister
had repeatedly made when arguing the case for war.

Cook reveals that on February 20 this year he was given a briefing by
Scarlett. "The presentation was impressive in its integrity and shorn of the
political slant with which No 10 encumbers any intelligence assessment," Cook
writes in his diary. "My conclusion at the end of an hour is that Saddam
probably does not have weapons of mass destruction in the sense of weapons
that could be used against large-scale civilian targets."

Two weeks later, on March 5, Cook saw Blair. At the time the government was
still trying to get a fresh UN resolution and Cook was still in government as
leader of the Commons.

Cook writes: "The most revealing exchange came when we talked about Saddam's
arsenal. I told him, 'It's clear from the private briefing I have had that
Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could
strike at strategic cities. But he probably does have several thousand
battlefield chemical munitions. Do you never worry that he might use them
against British troops?'

"[Blair replied:] 'Yes, but all the effort he has had to put into concealment
makes it difficult for him to assemble them quickly for use'."

Cook continues: "There were two distinct elements to this exchange that sent
me away deeply troubled. The first was that the timetable to war was plainly
not driven by the progress of the UN weapons inspections. Tony made no attempt
to pretend that what Hans Blix [the UN's chief weapons inspector] might report
would make any difference to the countdown to invasion.

"The second troubling element to our conversation was that Tony did not try to
argue me out of the view that Saddam did not have real weapons of mass
destruction that were designed for strategic use against city populations and
capable of being delivered with reliability over long distances. I had now
expressed that view to both the chairman of the JIC and to the prime minister
and both had assented in it.

"At the time I did believe it likely that Saddam had retained a quantity of
chemical munitions for tactical use on the battlefield. These did not pose 'a
real and present danger to Britain' as they were not designed for use against
city populations and by definition could threaten British personnel only if we
were to deploy them on the battlefield within range of Iraqi artillery.

"I had now twice been told that even those chemical shells had been put beyond
operational use in response to the pressure from intrusive inspections. I have
no reason to doubt that Tony Blair believed in September that Saddam really
had weapons of mass destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes. What was
clear from this conversation was that he did not believe it himself in March."

Cook asks: "If No 10 accepted that Saddam had no real weapons of mass
destruction which he could credibly deliver against city targets and if they
themselves believed that he could not reassemble his chemical weapons in a
credible timescale for use on the battlefield, just how much of a threat did
they really think Saddam represented?"

He raises "the gravest of political questions. The rules of the Commons
explicitly require ministers to correct the record as soon as they are aware
that they may have misled parliament. If the government did come to know that
the [United States] State Department did not trust the claims in the September
dossier and that some of even their top experts did not believe them, should
they not have told parliament before asking the Commons to vote for war on a
false prospectus?"

Cook decided not to publish his diaries ahead of last week's Labour conference
in Bournemouth. Had he done so, his revelations would have ensured Blair
received a much tougher ride from activists, many of whom are deeply uneasy
about the war.

He reveals that in the months leading up to the war Downing Street aides,
including Alastair Campbell, Blair's former director of communications, and
Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, were obsessed with not falling out with
Washington.

Cook discloses that several cabinet ministers had held misgivings about the
war, not just himself and Clare Short. At a cabinet meeting in late February
2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq and Cook received cries of
"hear, hear" from cabinet colleagues when he argued that Arab governments
regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle East. Cook
records it was "the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet".

His diary entry of March 7, 2002, a year before the war, says that Blunkett
and Patricia Hewitt, the trade secretary, raised objections at cabinet.

"A momentous moment. A real discussion at cabinet. Tony permitted us to have
the debate on Iraq which David [Blunkett] and I had asked for. For the first
time that I can recall in five years, Tony was out on a limb."

According to Cook, Blunkett asked Blair: "What has changed that suddenly gives
us the legal right to take military action that we didn't have a few months
ago?"

Hewitt warned Blair: "We are in danger of being seen as close to President
Bush, but without any influence over President Bush."

But the prime minister was "totally unfazed" and, when Hewitt again raised
objections at cabinet the following month, Blair refused to be boxed in,
telling colleagues: "The time to debate the legal base for our action should
be when we take that action."

Cook reveals that Bush had wanted to hold a crucial war council with Blair in
London on the weekend before the invasion of Iraq, a move that would have been
a public relations disaster given public hostility to the war. Blair persuaded
Bush to hold the summit in the Azores instead.

By September last year most of the cabinet had fallen into line. At cabinet on
September 23, before parliament was recalled from its summer break, Cook says:
"Personally I found it a grim meeting. Much of the two hours was taken up with
a succession of loyalty oaths for Tony's line."

He says only Estelle Morris, then education secretary, "bravely" reported
public disquiet that Britain was simply following Bush.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
Jerry F
2003-10-06 20:21:10 UTC
Permalink
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
Post by Awake
The Times of London has now printed evidence that Blair admitted that Saddam
had no WMD before the war began as was stated by he and Bush as reason for
the illegal invasion of Iraq which has now resulted in the worst quagmire for America
since Vietnam.
Another soldier has been killed on Saturday and another seriously wounded.
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318 and the wounded -which consist of
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
The casualties are mounting faster. By this time next year -and our lying scumbag
leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue through next year- the casualty
count will number at least 5,000.
For what?
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal the Palestinians land.
This is what the illegal invasion is all about. The missing arms, legs, eyes and lives
are all so the Jews can continue to steal Palestinian land and continue murdering
Palestinians.
When will the Jews in high places be held accountable for their murderous behavior?
Why have Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other "neoCONservative" Jews
disappeared from public view and public discussion?
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq
and Cook received cries of 'hear, hear' from cabinet colleagues when he argued
that Arab governments regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle
East. Cook records it was 'the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet'."
October 05, 2003
Blair 'knew Iraq had no WMD'
David Cracknell, Political Editor
TONY BLAIR privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam
Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook, the
former foreign secretary, reveals today.
John Scarlett, chairman of the joint intelligence committee (JIC), also
"assented" that Saddam had no such weapons, says Cook.
His revelations, taken from a diary that he kept as a senior minister during
the months leading up to war, are published today in The Sunday Times. They
shatter the case for war put forward by the government that Iraq presented "a
real and present danger" to Britain.
Cook, who resigned shortly before the invasion of Iraq, also reveals there was
a near mutiny in the cabinet, triggered by David Blunkett, the home secretary,
when it first discussed military action against Iraq.
The prime minister ignored the "large number of ministers who spoke up against
the war", according to Cook. He also "deliberately crafted a suggestive
phrasing" to mislead the public into thinking there was a link between Iraq
and Al-Qaeda, and he did not want United Nations weapons inspections to be
successful, writes the former cabinet minister.
Cook suggests that the government misled the House of Commons and asked MPs to
vote for war on a "false prospectus".
He also reveals that Blair earlier gave President Bill Clinton a private
assurance that he would support him in military action in Iraq if action in
the UN failed "and it would certainly have been in line with his previous
practice if he had given President Bush a private assurance of British
support".
Cook's long-awaited diaries, published in book form as Point of Departure, are
the first memoir of any member of Blair's cabinet. His disclosures are likely
to lead to renewed calls for a judicial inquiry into the legitimacy of the
war.
The Hutton inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly has dealt only with the
question of what the government believed ahead of publication of its Iraq
dossier in September 2002 and whether Downing Street hardened intelligence
reports to make the threat from Saddam seem more compelling.
Cook today opens a new controversy. He says that just days before sending
troops into action, Blair no longer believed Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes, the claim the prime minister
had repeatedly made when arguing the case for war.
Cook reveals that on February 20 this year he was given a briefing by
Scarlett. "The presentation was impressive in its integrity and shorn of the
political slant with which No 10 encumbers any intelligence assessment," Cook
writes in his diary. "My conclusion at the end of an hour is that Saddam
probably does not have weapons of mass destruction in the sense of weapons
that could be used against large-scale civilian targets."
Two weeks later, on March 5, Cook saw Blair. At the time the government was
still trying to get a fresh UN resolution and Cook was still in government as
leader of the Commons.
Cook writes: "The most revealing exchange came when we talked about Saddam's
arsenal. I told him, 'It's clear from the private briefing I have had that
Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could
strike at strategic cities. But he probably does have several thousand
battlefield chemical munitions. Do you never worry that he might use them
against British troops?'
"[Blair replied:] 'Yes, but all the effort he has had to put into concealment
makes it difficult for him to assemble them quickly for use'."
Cook continues: "There were two distinct elements to this exchange that sent
me away deeply troubled. The first was that the timetable to war was plainly
not driven by the progress of the UN weapons inspections. Tony made no attempt
to pretend that what Hans Blix [the UN's chief weapons inspector] might report
would make any difference to the countdown to invasion.
"The second troubling element to our conversation was that Tony did not try to
argue me out of the view that Saddam did not have real weapons of mass
destruction that were designed for strategic use against city populations and
capable of being delivered with reliability over long distances. I had now
expressed that view to both the chairman of the JIC and to the prime minister
and both had assented in it.
"At the time I did believe it likely that Saddam had retained a quantity of
chemical munitions for tactical use on the battlefield. These did not pose 'a
real and present danger to Britain' as they were not designed for use against
city populations and by definition could threaten British personnel only if we
were to deploy them on the battlefield within range of Iraqi artillery.
"I had now twice been told that even those chemical shells had been put beyond
operational use in response to the pressure from intrusive inspections. I have
no reason to doubt that Tony Blair believed in September that Saddam really
had weapons of mass destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes. What was
clear from this conversation was that he did not believe it himself in March."
Cook asks: "If No 10 accepted that Saddam had no real weapons of mass
destruction which he could credibly deliver against city targets and if they
themselves believed that he could not reassemble his chemical weapons in a
credible timescale for use on the battlefield, just how much of a threat did
they really think Saddam represented?"
He raises "the gravest of political questions. The rules of the Commons
explicitly require ministers to correct the record as soon as they are aware
that they may have misled parliament. If the government did come to know that
the [United States] State Department did not trust the claims in the September
dossier and that some of even their top experts did not believe them, should
they not have told parliament before asking the Commons to vote for war on a
false prospectus?"
Cook decided not to publish his diaries ahead of last week's Labour conference
in Bournemouth. Had he done so, his revelations would have ensured Blair
received a much tougher ride from activists, many of whom are deeply uneasy
about the war.
He reveals that in the months leading up to the war Downing Street aides,
including Alastair Campbell, Blair's former director of communications, and
Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, were obsessed with not falling out with
Washington.
Cook discloses that several cabinet ministers had held misgivings about the
war, not just himself and Clare Short. At a cabinet meeting in late February
2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq and Cook received cries of
"hear, hear" from cabinet colleagues when he argued that Arab governments
regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle East. Cook
records it was "the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet".
His diary entry of March 7, 2002, a year before the war, says that Blunkett
and Patricia Hewitt, the trade secretary, raised objections at cabinet.
"A momentous moment. A real discussion at cabinet. Tony permitted us to have
the debate on Iraq which David [Blunkett] and I had asked for. For the first
time that I can recall in five years, Tony was out on a limb."
According to Cook, Blunkett asked Blair: "What has changed that suddenly gives
us the legal right to take military action that we didn't have a few months
ago?"
Hewitt warned Blair: "We are in danger of being seen as close to President
Bush, but without any influence over President Bush."
But the prime minister was "totally unfazed" and, when Hewitt again raised
objections at cabinet the following month, Blair refused to be boxed in,
telling colleagues: "The time to debate the legal base for our action should
be when we take that action."
Cook reveals that Bush had wanted to hold a crucial war council with Blair in
London on the weekend before the invasion of Iraq, a move that would have been
a public relations disaster given public hostility to the war. Blair persuaded
Bush to hold the summit in the Azores instead.
By September last year most of the cabinet had fallen into line. At cabinet on
"Personally I found it a grim meeting. Much of the two hours was taken up with
a succession of loyalty oaths for Tony's line."
He says only Estelle Morris, then education secretary, "bravely" reported
public disquiet that Britain was simply following Bush.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
Brian Bernardini
2003-10-06 20:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
What's it like being so stupid?


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MusicMax
2003-10-06 21:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Bernardini
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
What's it like being so stupid?
What statement in the article is false?

Identify the falsehood right here:

_________________________________________________________________
JLeonard
2003-10-06 23:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
Post by Brian Bernardini
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
What's it like being so stupid?
What statement in the article is false?
You're making a mistake assuming that there are any facts upon which to
assign truth or falseness. This is an opinion piece, and as such should be
regarded like the proverbial asshole.
MusicMax
2003-10-07 00:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JLeonard
Post by MusicMax
Post by Brian Bernardini
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
What's it like being so stupid?
What statement in the article is false?
You're making a mistake assuming that there are any facts upon which
to assign truth or falseness. This is an opinion piece, and as such
should be regarded like the proverbial asshole.
No, it's NOT an "opinion piece". It is straight news. Period.
JLeonard
2003-10-07 10:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
Post by JLeonard
You're making a mistake assuming that there are any facts upon which
to assign truth or falseness. This is an opinion piece, and as such
should be regarded like the proverbial asshole.
No, it's NOT an "opinion piece". It is straight news. Period.
It might be considered news to those who think MTV or National Enquirer are
ligitimate news sources. The 1st few paragraphs are 100% opinion and
speculation from a person with a political agenda, who doesn't understand
the meaning of the word 'quagmire' or the nature of war. The main body of
the piece is simply pasted from a supposed article from a source that is not
cited. The piece is full of hearsay and 'facts' from undocumented, uncited,
unverifiable sources. In short, I've seen better 'news' in late night
infomercials.
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JLeonard
Post by MusicMax
Post by JLeonard
You're making a mistake assuming that there are any facts upon
which to assign truth or falseness. This is an opinion piece, and
as such should be regarded like the proverbial asshole.
No, it's NOT an "opinion piece". It is straight news. Period.
It might be considered news to those who think MTV or National
Enquirer are ligitimate news sources.
But apparently not to those who can't spell "legitimate".
Post by JLeonard
The 1st few paragraphs are 100% opinion and
speculation from a person with a political agenda, who doesn't
understand the meaning of the word 'quagmire' or the nature of war.
I was not referring to that part.
Post by JLeonard
The main body of
the piece is simply pasted from a supposed article from a source that
is not cited.
Yes, the cite was there.
Post by JLeonard
The piece is full of hearsay and 'facts' from undocumented, uncited,
unverifiable sources.
The former leader of the House of Commons is an "undocumented, uncited,
unverifiable source"?
Post by JLeonard
In short, I've seen better 'news' in late night
infomercials.
And while you're watching infomercials late at night the rest of us are
sleeping so we can go to work the next day.
JLeonard
2003-10-08 11:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
But apparently not to those who can't spell "legitimate".
Point well taken, but you're clearly right. I don't accept, as fact, what
some kook posts on the internet. If you do, you've got larger problems.
Post by MusicMax
Post by JLeonard
The 1st few paragraphs are 100% opinion and
speculation from a person with a political agenda, who doesn't
understand the meaning of the word 'quagmire' or the nature of war.
I was not referring to that part.
That's not what you originally said. Try saying what you mean, if you even
know.
Post by MusicMax
The former leader of the House of Commons is an "undocumented, uncited,
unverifiable source"?
When the info from him is hearsay and 'facts' not put in writing, verified
by at least one source, absolutely. Why do think and elected official is an
authority on anything. They are likely some former insurance salesman or
trust fund kid who happened to have the $ and leisure to run for office.
Post by MusicMax
And while you're watching infomercials late at night the rest of us are
sleeping so we can go to work the next day.
Yeah, I hear Waffle House makes their cooks arrive quite early.
126
2003-10-07 01:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JLeonard
Post by MusicMax
What statement in the article is false?
You're making a mistake assuming that there are any facts upon which to
assign truth or falseness. This is an opinion piece, and as such should be
regarded like the proverbial asshole.
An ignorant person who hasn't spent thousands of hours of research
on the topic (such as yourself) can state this, had you done any research
you would have realized that the post was true. I just wish he cut the anti-Jew
crap as it's not very helpful to his arguments when dealing with ignoramuses
such as yourself.
Jerry
2003-10-06 22:21:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:38:04 -0400, Brian Bernardini
Post by Brian Bernardini
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
What's it like being so stupid?
Ask GWB.
h
2003-10-06 22:41:55 UTC
Permalink
asshole
Post by Jerry F
A FUCKIN' MEN BROTHER!!!!
Post by Awake
The Times of London has now printed evidence that Blair admitted that Saddam
had no WMD before the war began as was stated by he and Bush as reason for
the illegal invasion of Iraq which has now resulted in the worst quagmire for America
since Vietnam.
Another soldier has been killed on Saturday and another seriously wounded.
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318 and the wounded -which consist of
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
The casualties are mounting faster. By this time next year -and our lying scumbag
leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue through next year- the casualty
count will number at least 5,000.
For what?
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal the Palestinians land.
This is what the illegal invasion is all about. The missing arms, legs, eyes and lives
are all so the Jews can continue to steal Palestinian land and continue murdering
Palestinians.
When will the Jews in high places be held accountable for their murderous behavior?
Why have Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other "neoCONservative" Jews
disappeared from public view and public discussion?
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq
and Cook received cries of 'hear, hear' from cabinet colleagues when he argued
that Arab governments regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle
East. Cook records it was 'the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet'."
October 05, 2003
Blair 'knew Iraq had no WMD'
David Cracknell, Political Editor
TONY BLAIR privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam
Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook, the
former foreign secretary, reveals today.
John Scarlett, chairman of the joint intelligence committee (JIC), also
"assented" that Saddam had no such weapons, says Cook.
His revelations, taken from a diary that he kept as a senior minister during
the months leading up to war, are published today in The Sunday Times. They
shatter the case for war put forward by the government that Iraq presented "a
real and present danger" to Britain.
Cook, who resigned shortly before the invasion of Iraq, also reveals there was
a near mutiny in the cabinet, triggered by David Blunkett, the home secretary,
when it first discussed military action against Iraq.
The prime minister ignored the "large number of ministers who spoke up against
the war", according to Cook. He also "deliberately crafted a suggestive
phrasing" to mislead the public into thinking there was a link between Iraq
and Al-Qaeda, and he did not want United Nations weapons inspections to be
successful, writes the former cabinet minister.
Cook suggests that the government misled the House of Commons and asked MPs to
vote for war on a "false prospectus".
He also reveals that Blair earlier gave President Bill Clinton a private
assurance that he would support him in military action in Iraq if action in
the UN failed "and it would certainly have been in line with his previous
practice if he had given President Bush a private assurance of British
support".
Cook's long-awaited diaries, published in book form as Point of Departure, are
the first memoir of any member of Blair's cabinet. His disclosures are likely
to lead to renewed calls for a judicial inquiry into the legitimacy of the
war.
The Hutton inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly has dealt only with the
question of what the government believed ahead of publication of its Iraq
dossier in September 2002 and whether Downing Street hardened
intelligence
Post by Jerry F
Post by Awake
reports to make the threat from Saddam seem more compelling.
Cook today opens a new controversy. He says that just days before sending
troops into action, Blair no longer believed Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes, the claim the prime minister
had repeatedly made when arguing the case for war.
Cook reveals that on February 20 this year he was given a briefing by
Scarlett. "The presentation was impressive in its integrity and shorn of the
political slant with which No 10 encumbers any intelligence assessment," Cook
writes in his diary. "My conclusion at the end of an hour is that Saddam
probably does not have weapons of mass destruction in the sense of weapons
that could be used against large-scale civilian targets."
Two weeks later, on March 5, Cook saw Blair. At the time the government was
still trying to get a fresh UN resolution and Cook was still in government as
leader of the Commons.
Cook writes: "The most revealing exchange came when we talked about Saddam's
arsenal. I told him, 'It's clear from the private briefing I have had that
Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could
strike at strategic cities. But he probably does have several thousand
battlefield chemical munitions. Do you never worry that he might use them
against British troops?'
"[Blair replied:] 'Yes, but all the effort he has had to put into concealment
makes it difficult for him to assemble them quickly for use'."
Cook continues: "There were two distinct elements to this exchange that sent
me away deeply troubled. The first was that the timetable to war was plainly
not driven by the progress of the UN weapons inspections. Tony made no attempt
to pretend that what Hans Blix [the UN's chief weapons inspector] might report
would make any difference to the countdown to invasion.
"The second troubling element to our conversation was that Tony did not try to
argue me out of the view that Saddam did not have real weapons of mass
destruction that were designed for strategic use against city populations and
capable of being delivered with reliability over long distances. I had now
expressed that view to both the chairman of the JIC and to the prime minister
and both had assented in it.
"At the time I did believe it likely that Saddam had retained a quantity of
chemical munitions for tactical use on the battlefield. These did not pose 'a
real and present danger to Britain' as they were not designed for use against
city populations and by definition could threaten British personnel only if we
were to deploy them on the battlefield within range of Iraqi artillery.
"I had now twice been told that even those chemical shells had been put beyond
operational use in response to the pressure from intrusive inspections. I have
no reason to doubt that Tony Blair believed in September that Saddam really
had weapons of mass destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes. What was
clear from this conversation was that he did not believe it himself in March."
Cook asks: "If No 10 accepted that Saddam had no real weapons of mass
destruction which he could credibly deliver against city targets and if they
themselves believed that he could not reassemble his chemical weapons in a
credible timescale for use on the battlefield, just how much of a threat did
they really think Saddam represented?"
He raises "the gravest of political questions. The rules of the Commons
explicitly require ministers to correct the record as soon as they are aware
that they may have misled parliament. If the government did come to know that
the [United States] State Department did not trust the claims in the September
dossier and that some of even their top experts did not believe them, should
they not have told parliament before asking the Commons to vote for war on a
false prospectus?"
Cook decided not to publish his diaries ahead of last week's Labour conference
in Bournemouth. Had he done so, his revelations would have ensured Blair
received a much tougher ride from activists, many of whom are deeply uneasy
about the war.
He reveals that in the months leading up to the war Downing Street aides,
including Alastair Campbell, Blair's former director of communications, and
Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, were obsessed with not falling out with
Washington.
Cook discloses that several cabinet ministers had held misgivings about the
war, not just himself and Clare Short. At a cabinet meeting in late February
2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq and Cook received cries of
"hear, hear" from cabinet colleagues when he argued that Arab governments
regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle East. Cook
records it was "the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet".
His diary entry of March 7, 2002, a year before the war, says that Blunkett
and Patricia Hewitt, the trade secretary, raised objections at cabinet.
"A momentous moment. A real discussion at cabinet. Tony permitted us to have
the debate on Iraq which David [Blunkett] and I had asked for. For the first
time that I can recall in five years, Tony was out on a limb."
According to Cook, Blunkett asked Blair: "What has changed that suddenly gives
us the legal right to take military action that we didn't have a few months
ago?"
Hewitt warned Blair: "We are in danger of being seen as close to President
Bush, but without any influence over President Bush."
But the prime minister was "totally unfazed" and, when Hewitt again raised
objections at cabinet the following month, Blair refused to be boxed in,
telling colleagues: "The time to debate the legal base for our action sho
uld
Post by Jerry F
Post by Awake
be when we take that action."
Cook reveals that Bush had wanted to hold a crucial war council with Blair in
London on the weekend before the invasion of Iraq, a move that would have been
a public relations disaster given public hostility to the war. Blair persuaded
Bush to hold the summit in the Azores instead.
By September last year most of the cabinet had fallen into line. At cabinet on
"Personally I found it a grim meeting. Much of the two hours was taken up with
a succession of loyalty oaths for Tony's line."
He says only Estelle Morris, then education secretary, "bravely" reported
public disquiet that Britain was simply following Bush.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
Joseph Meehan
2003-10-06 20:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Not to disagree with your thought (not most of it anyway), but it has
nothing to do with Country western music, Mercedes autos, BMW's, Volvo's or
running.
--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Awake" <Anonymous-***@See.Comment.Header> wrote in message news:***@anonymous.poster...
unknown
2003-10-06 22:15:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:33:13 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
Post by Joseph Meehan
Not to disagree with your thought (not most of it anyway), but it has
nothing to do with Country western music, Mercedes autos, BMW's, Volvo's or
running.
Obviously we have a guy who enjoy's listening to country music
while either running after, or being run over by, Mercedes, BMW's and
Volvo's.
What I don't get is obviously he/she/it also enjoys politics
but not posting to them. Go figure.

~Matt
Post by Joseph Meehan
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
henrib
2003-10-06 22:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Just another dirty Arab with a chip on his shoulder.
Piss off and go and spout your shit elsewhere
Post by Joseph Meehan
Not to disagree with your thought (not most of it anyway), but it has
nothing to do with Country western music, Mercedes autos, BMW's, Volvo's or
running.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Jerry F
2003-10-06 23:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Now that I've seen the rest of the article he is an asshole.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:38:48 +0000 (UTC), "henrib"
Post by henrib
Just another dirty Arab with a chip on his shoulder.
Piss off and go and spout your shit elsewhere
Post by Joseph Meehan
Not to disagree with your thought (not most of it anyway), but it has
nothing to do with Country western music, Mercedes autos, BMW's, Volvo's
or
Post by Joseph Meehan
running.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
p***@here.there
2003-10-07 01:57:45 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:38:48 +0000 (UTC), "henrib"
Post by henrib
Just another dirty Arab with a chip on his shoulder.
Piss off and go and spout your shit elsewhere
This is probably the truest statement of them all. Whether or not a
valid reason was used, the son of a bitch needed to go. Bush is just
correcting his father's fuck up. Now, if they'll just take out Sharone
and that asshole Arafat, peace may someday come to Israel and
Palestine...
Huw
2003-10-08 18:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Meehan
Not to disagree with your thought (not most of it anyway), but it has
nothing to do with Country western music, Mercedes autos, BMW's, Volvo's or
running.
Unless Bush and Blair own these cars and listen to Country music on
their way to worship.

Huw


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/03
jim
2003-10-06 21:45:30 UTC
Permalink
You must be Jehovah's Witness? With a username of Awake and the fact that
you are putting your nose in other people's business? Talk about it in
politics or religion, not here...thanks
Post by Awake
The Times of London has now printed evidence that Blair admitted that Saddam
had no WMD before the war began as was stated by he and Bush as reason for
the illegal invasion of Iraq which has now resulted in the worst quagmire for America
since Vietnam.
Another soldier has been killed on Saturday and another seriously wounded.
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318 and the wounded -which consist of
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
The casualties are mounting faster. By this time next year -and our lying scumbag
leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue through next year- the casualty
count will number at least 5,000.
For what?
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal the Palestinians land.
This is what the illegal invasion is all about. The missing arms, legs, eyes and lives
are all so the Jews can continue to steal Palestinian land and continue murdering
Palestinians.
When will the Jews in high places be held accountable for their murderous behavior?
Why have Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other "neoCONservative" Jews
disappeared from public view and public discussion?
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq
and Cook received cries of 'hear, hear' from cabinet colleagues when he argued
that Arab governments regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle
East. Cook records it was 'the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet'."
October 05, 2003
Blair 'knew Iraq had no WMD'
David Cracknell, Political Editor
TONY BLAIR privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam
Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook, the
former foreign secretary, reveals today.
John Scarlett, chairman of the joint intelligence committee (JIC), also
"assented" that Saddam had no such weapons, says Cook.
His revelations, taken from a diary that he kept as a senior minister during
the months leading up to war, are published today in The Sunday Times. They
shatter the case for war put forward by the government that Iraq presented "a
real and present danger" to Britain.
Cook, who resigned shortly before the invasion of Iraq, also reveals there was
a near mutiny in the cabinet, triggered by David Blunkett, the home secretary,
when it first discussed military action against Iraq.
The prime minister ignored the "large number of ministers who spoke up against
the war", according to Cook. He also "deliberately crafted a suggestive
phrasing" to mislead the public into thinking there was a link between Iraq
and Al-Qaeda, and he did not want United Nations weapons inspections to be
successful, writes the former cabinet minister.
Cook suggests that the government misled the House of Commons and asked MPs to
vote for war on a "false prospectus".
He also reveals that Blair earlier gave President Bill Clinton a private
assurance that he would support him in military action in Iraq if action in
the UN failed "and it would certainly have been in line with his previous
practice if he had given President Bush a private assurance of British
support".
Cook's long-awaited diaries, published in book form as Point of Departure, are
the first memoir of any member of Blair's cabinet. His disclosures are likely
to lead to renewed calls for a judicial inquiry into the legitimacy of the
war.
The Hutton inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly has dealt only with the
question of what the government believed ahead of publication of its Iraq
dossier in September 2002 and whether Downing Street hardened intelligence
reports to make the threat from Saddam seem more compelling.
Cook today opens a new controversy. He says that just days before sending
troops into action, Blair no longer believed Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes, the claim the prime minister
had repeatedly made when arguing the case for war.
Cook reveals that on February 20 this year he was given a briefing by
Scarlett. "The presentation was impressive in its integrity and shorn of the
political slant with which No 10 encumbers any intelligence assessment," Cook
writes in his diary. "My conclusion at the end of an hour is that Saddam
probably does not have weapons of mass destruction in the sense of weapons
that could be used against large-scale civilian targets."
Two weeks later, on March 5, Cook saw Blair. At the time the government was
still trying to get a fresh UN resolution and Cook was still in government as
leader of the Commons.
Cook writes: "The most revealing exchange came when we talked about Saddam's
arsenal. I told him, 'It's clear from the private briefing I have had that
Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could
strike at strategic cities. But he probably does have several thousand
battlefield chemical munitions. Do you never worry that he might use them
against British troops?'
"[Blair replied:] 'Yes, but all the effort he has had to put into concealment
makes it difficult for him to assemble them quickly for use'."
Cook continues: "There were two distinct elements to this exchange that sent
me away deeply troubled. The first was that the timetable to war was plainly
not driven by the progress of the UN weapons inspections. Tony made no attempt
to pretend that what Hans Blix [the UN's chief weapons inspector] might report
would make any difference to the countdown to invasion.
"The second troubling element to our conversation was that Tony did not try to
argue me out of the view that Saddam did not have real weapons of mass
destruction that were designed for strategic use against city populations and
capable of being delivered with reliability over long distances. I had now
expressed that view to both the chairman of the JIC and to the prime minister
and both had assented in it.
"At the time I did believe it likely that Saddam had retained a quantity of
chemical munitions for tactical use on the battlefield. These did not pose 'a
real and present danger to Britain' as they were not designed for use against
city populations and by definition could threaten British personnel only if we
were to deploy them on the battlefield within range of Iraqi artillery.
"I had now twice been told that even those chemical shells had been put beyond
operational use in response to the pressure from intrusive inspections. I have
no reason to doubt that Tony Blair believed in September that Saddam really
had weapons of mass destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes. What was
clear from this conversation was that he did not believe it himself in March."
Cook asks: "If No 10 accepted that Saddam had no real weapons of mass
destruction which he could credibly deliver against city targets and if they
themselves believed that he could not reassemble his chemical weapons in a
credible timescale for use on the battlefield, just how much of a threat did
they really think Saddam represented?"
He raises "the gravest of political questions. The rules of the Commons
explicitly require ministers to correct the record as soon as they are aware
that they may have misled parliament. If the government did come to know that
the [United States] State Department did not trust the claims in the September
dossier and that some of even their top experts did not believe them, should
they not have told parliament before asking the Commons to vote for war on a
false prospectus?"
Cook decided not to publish his diaries ahead of last week's Labour conference
in Bournemouth. Had he done so, his revelations would have ensured Blair
received a much tougher ride from activists, many of whom are deeply uneasy
about the war.
He reveals that in the months leading up to the war Downing Street aides,
including Alastair Campbell, Blair's former director of communications, and
Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, were obsessed with not falling out with
Washington.
Cook discloses that several cabinet ministers had held misgivings about the
war, not just himself and Clare Short. At a cabinet meeting in late February
2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq and Cook received cries of
"hear, hear" from cabinet colleagues when he argued that Arab governments
regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle East. Cook
records it was "the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet".
His diary entry of March 7, 2002, a year before the war, says that Blunkett
and Patricia Hewitt, the trade secretary, raised objections at cabinet.
"A momentous moment. A real discussion at cabinet. Tony permitted us to have
the debate on Iraq which David [Blunkett] and I had asked for. For the first
time that I can recall in five years, Tony was out on a limb."
According to Cook, Blunkett asked Blair: "What has changed that suddenly gives
us the legal right to take military action that we didn't have a few months
ago?"
Hewitt warned Blair: "We are in danger of being seen as close to President
Bush, but without any influence over President Bush."
But the prime minister was "totally unfazed" and, when Hewitt again raised
objections at cabinet the following month, Blair refused to be boxed in,
telling colleagues: "The time to debate the legal base for our action should
be when we take that action."
Cook reveals that Bush had wanted to hold a crucial war council with Blair in
London on the weekend before the invasion of Iraq, a move that would have been
a public relations disaster given public hostility to the war. Blair persuaded
Bush to hold the summit in the Azores instead.
By September last year most of the cabinet had fallen into line. At cabinet on
"Personally I found it a grim meeting. Much of the two hours was taken up with
a succession of loyalty oaths for Tony's line."
He says only Estelle Morris, then education secretary, "bravely" reported
public disquiet that Britain was simply following Bush.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
dizzy
2003-10-06 22:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim
You must be Jehovah's Witness? With a username of Awake and the fact that
you are putting your nose in other people's business? Talk about it in
politics or religion, not here...thanks
Did you have to quote the entire article for that comment, "Jim"?
Just too much work to delete the crap, huh?
jim
2003-10-07 01:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Dizzy,

Why not stop being the newsreader cop? I bet I have been on newsgroups far
longer than you, and there are no rules here. Why not get yourself cleaned
out so you are not so anal retentive?

I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response to
your acerbic, captious carping.
Post by dizzy
Post by jim
You must be Jehovah's Witness? With a username of Awake and the fact that
you are putting your nose in other people's business? Talk about it in
politics or religion, not here...thanks
Did you have to quote the entire article for that comment, "Jim"?
Just too much work to delete the crap, huh?
Scott
2003-10-07 01:54:21 UTC
Permalink
"jim" wrote...
Post by jim
Dizzy,
Why not stop being the newsreader cop? I bet I have been on newsgroups far
longer than you, and there are no rules here. Why not get yourself cleaned
out so you are not so anal retentive?
I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response to
your acerbic, captious carping.
"jim", there are definitely rules in Usenet, including those about snipping,
especially a 12K post. Please learn about the tools you are trying to use.
tt
2003-10-07 07:22:23 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:54:21 GMT, "Scott"
Post by Scott
"jim", there are definitely rules in Usenet, including those about snipping,
especially a 12K post. Please learn about the tools you are trying to use.
I HEAR YOU ARE AN EXPERT ON "TOOLS"...
Marvin Margoshes
2003-10-07 20:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott
"jim" wrote...
Post by jim
Dizzy,
Why not stop being the newsreader cop? I bet I have been on newsgroups far
longer than you, and there are no rules here. Why not get yourself cleaned
out so you are not so anal retentive?
I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response to
your acerbic, captious carping.
"jim", there are definitely rules in Usenet, including those about snipping,
especially a 12K post. Please learn about the tools you are trying to use.
Please tell us all who makes these rules, so we can look them up.
Scott
2003-10-08 09:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Scott wrote...
Post by Scott
"jim" wrote...
Post by jim
I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response
to your acerbic, captious carping.
"jim", there are definitely rules in Usenet, including those about snipping,
especially a 12K post. Please learn about the tools you are trying to use.
Please tell us all who makes these rules, so we can look them up.
You're kidding right? news:news.announce.newusers
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-07 03:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim
Why not stop being the newsreader cop? I bet I have been on newsgroups far
longer than you, and there are no rules here. Why not get yourself cleaned
out so you are not so anal retentive?
I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response to
your acerbic, captious carping.
All that typing and nobody to read it. What a waste of your time.

*plonk*
TBR
2003-10-07 07:20:21 UTC
Permalink
LET'S TAKE UP A COLLECTION, AND WE'LL ALL BUY HIM AN ENEMA.
Post by jim
Dizzy,
Why not stop being the newsreader cop? I bet I have been on newsgroups far
longer than you, and there are no rules here. Why not get yourself cleaned
out so you are not so anal retentive?
I will post the way I want, and will not be posting further in response to
your acerbic, captious carping.
Post by dizzy
Post by jim
You must be Jehovah's Witness? With a username of Awake and the fact
that
Post by dizzy
Post by jim
you are putting your nose in other people's business? Talk about it in
politics or religion, not here...thanks
Did you have to quote the entire article for that comment, "Jim"?
Just too much work to delete the crap, huh?
h
2003-10-06 22:54:40 UTC
Permalink
amen to that,
only I don't think he's religious....just another terrorist from the Mid
east.
Killed any kids recently towel-head?
Post by jim
You must be Jehovah's Witness? With a username of Awake and the fact that
you are putting your nose in other people's business? Talk about it in
politics or religion, not here...thanks
Post by Awake
The Times of London has now printed evidence that Blair admitted that
Saddam
Post by Awake
had no WMD before the war began as was stated by he and Bush as reason for
the illegal invasion of Iraq which has now resulted in the worst
quagmire
Post by jim
for America
Post by Awake
since Vietnam.
Another soldier has been killed on Saturday and another seriously wounded.
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318 and the wounded -which
consist
Post by jim
of
Post by Awake
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
The casualties are mounting faster. By this time next year -and our
lying
Post by jim
scumbag
Post by Awake
leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue through next year-
the
Post by jim
casualty
Post by Awake
count will number at least 5,000.
For what?
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal the Palestinians land.
This is what the illegal invasion is all about. The missing arms, legs,
eyes and lives
Post by Awake
are all so the Jews can continue to steal Palestinian land and continue
murdering
Post by Awake
Palestinians.
When will the Jews in high places be held accountable for their
murderous
Post by jim
behavior?
Post by Awake
Why have Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other "neoCONservative"
Jews
Post by Awake
disappeared from public view and public discussion?
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002, Blunkett asked for a
discussion on Iraq
Post by Awake
and Cook received cries of 'hear, hear' from cabinet colleagues when he
argued
Post by Awake
that Arab governments regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for
the Middle
Post by Awake
East. Cook records it was 'the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in
cabinet'."
Post by Awake
October 05, 2003
Blair 'knew Iraq had no WMD'
David Cracknell, Political Editor
TONY BLAIR privately conceded two weeks before the Iraq war that Saddam
Hussein did not have any usable weapons of mass destruction, Robin Cook,
the
Post by Awake
former foreign secretary, reveals today.
John Scarlett, chairman of the joint intelligence committee (JIC), also
"assented" that Saddam had no such weapons, says Cook.
His revelations, taken from a diary that he kept as a senior minister
during
Post by Awake
the months leading up to war, are published today in The Sunday Times.
They
Post by Awake
shatter the case for war put forward by the government that Iraq
presented
Post by jim
"a
Post by Awake
real and present danger" to Britain.
Cook, who resigned shortly before the invasion of Iraq, also reveals
there
Post by jim
was
Post by Awake
a near mutiny in the cabinet, triggered by David Blunkett, the home
secretary,
Post by Awake
when it first discussed military action against Iraq.
The prime minister ignored the "large number of ministers who spoke up
against
Post by Awake
the war", according to Cook. He also "deliberately crafted a suggestive
phrasing" to mislead the public into thinking there was a link between
Iraq
Post by Awake
and Al-Qaeda, and he did not want United Nations weapons inspections to be
successful, writes the former cabinet minister.
Cook suggests that the government misled the House of Commons and asked
MPs to
Post by Awake
vote for war on a "false prospectus".
He also reveals that Blair earlier gave President Bill Clinton a private
assurance that he would support him in military action in Iraq if action
in
Post by Awake
the UN failed "and it would certainly have been in line with his previous
practice if he had given President Bush a private assurance of British
support".
Cook's long-awaited diaries, published in book form as Point of
Departure,
Post by jim
are
Post by Awake
the first memoir of any member of Blair's cabinet. His disclosures are
likely
Post by Awake
to lead to renewed calls for a judicial inquiry into the legitimacy of the
war.
The Hutton inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly has dealt only with
the
Post by Awake
question of what the government believed ahead of publication of its Iraq
dossier in September 2002 and whether Downing Street hardened intelligence
reports to make the threat from Saddam seem more compelling.
Cook today opens a new controversy. He says that just days before sending
troops into action, Blair no longer believed Saddam had weapons of mass
destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes, the claim the prime
minister
Post by Awake
had repeatedly made when arguing the case for war.
Cook reveals that on February 20 this year he was given a briefing by
Scarlett. "The presentation was impressive in its integrity and shorn of
the
Post by Awake
political slant with which No 10 encumbers any intelligence assessment,"
Cook
Post by Awake
writes in his diary. "My conclusion at the end of an hour is that Saddam
probably does not have weapons of mass destruction in the sense of weapons
that could be used against large-scale civilian targets."
Two weeks later, on March 5, Cook saw Blair. At the time the government
was
Post by Awake
still trying to get a fresh UN resolution and Cook was still in
government
Post by jim
as
Post by Awake
leader of the Commons.
Cook writes: "The most revealing exchange came when we talked about
Saddam's
Post by Awake
arsenal. I told him, 'It's clear from the private briefing I have had that
Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction in a sense of weapons that could
strike at strategic cities. But he probably does have several thousand
battlefield chemical munitions. Do you never worry that he might use them
against British troops?'
"[Blair replied:] 'Yes, but all the effort he has had to put into
concealment
Post by Awake
makes it difficult for him to assemble them quickly for use'."
Cook continues: "There were two distinct elements to this exchange that
sent
Post by Awake
me away deeply troubled. The first was that the timetable to war was
plainly
Post by Awake
not driven by the progress of the UN weapons inspections. Tony made no
attempt
Post by Awake
to pretend that what Hans Blix [the UN's chief weapons inspector] might
report
Post by Awake
would make any difference to the countdown to invasion.
"The second troubling element to our conversation was that Tony did not
try to
Post by Awake
argue me out of the view that Saddam did not have real weapons of mass
destruction that were designed for strategic use against city
populations
Post by jim
and
Post by Awake
capable of being delivered with reliability over long distances. I had now
expressed that view to both the chairman of the JIC and to the prime
minister
Post by Awake
and both had assented in it.
"At the time I did believe it likely that Saddam had retained a quantity
of
Post by Awake
chemical munitions for tactical use on the battlefield. These did not
pose
Post by jim
'a
Post by Awake
real and present danger to Britain' as they were not designed for use
against
Post by Awake
city populations and by definition could threaten British personnel only
if we
Post by Awake
were to deploy them on the battlefield within range of Iraqi artillery.
"I had now twice been told that even those chemical shells had been put
beyond
Post by Awake
operational use in response to the pressure from intrusive inspections.
I
Post by jim
have
Post by Awake
no reason to doubt that Tony Blair believed in September that Saddam
really
Post by Awake
had weapons of mass destruction ready for firing within 45 minutes. What
was
Post by Awake
clear from this conversation was that he did not believe it himself in
March."
Post by Awake
Cook asks: "If No 10 accepted that Saddam had no real weapons of mass
destruction which he could credibly deliver against city targets and if
they
Post by Awake
themselves believed that he could not reassemble his chemical weapons in a
credible timescale for use on the battlefield, just how much of a threat
did
Post by Awake
they really think Saddam represented?"
He raises "the gravest of political questions. The rules of the Commons
explicitly require ministers to correct the record as soon as they are
aware
Post by Awake
that they may have misled parliament. If the government did come to know
that
Post by Awake
the [United States] State Department did not trust the claims in the
September
Post by Awake
dossier and that some of even their top experts did not believe them,
should
Post by Awake
they not have told parliament before asking the Commons to vote for war
on
Post by jim
a
Post by Awake
false prospectus?"
Cook decided not to publish his diaries ahead of last week's Labour
conference
Post by Awake
in Bournemouth. Had he done so, his revelations would have ensured Blair
received a much tougher ride from activists, many of whom are deeply
uneasy
Post by Awake
about the war.
He reveals that in the months leading up to the war Downing Street aides,
including Alastair Campbell, Blair's former director of communications,
and
Post by Awake
Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, were obsessed with not falling out
with
Post by Awake
Washington.
Cook discloses that several cabinet ministers had held misgivings about
the
Post by Awake
war, not just himself and Clare Short. At a cabinet meeting in late
February
Post by Awake
2002, Blunkett asked for a discussion on Iraq and Cook received cries of
"hear, hear" from cabinet colleagues when he argued that Arab governments
regarded Israel, not Iraq, as the real problem for the Middle East. Cook
records it was "the nearest thing I've heard to a mutiny in cabinet".
His diary entry of March 7, 2002, a year before the war, says that
Blunkett
Post by Awake
and Patricia Hewitt, the trade secretary, raised objections at cabinet.
"A momentous moment. A real discussion at cabinet. Tony permitted us to
have
Post by Awake
the debate on Iraq which David [Blunkett] and I had asked for. For the
first
Post by Awake
time that I can recall in five years, Tony was out on a limb."
According to Cook, Blunkett asked Blair: "What has changed that suddenly
gives
Post by Awake
us the legal right to take military action that we didn't have a few
months
Post by Awake
ago?"
Hewitt warned Blair: "We are in danger of being seen as close to President
Bush, but without any influence over President Bush."
But the prime minister was "totally unfazed" and, when Hewitt again raised
objections at cabinet the following month, Blair refused to be boxed in,
telling colleagues: "The time to debate the legal base for our action
should
Post by Awake
be when we take that action."
Cook reveals that Bush had wanted to hold a crucial war council with
Blair
Post by jim
in
Post by Awake
London on the weekend before the invasion of Iraq, a move that would
have
Post by jim
been
Post by Awake
a public relations disaster given public hostility to the war. Blair
persuaded
Post by Awake
Bush to hold the summit in the Azores instead.
By September last year most of the cabinet had fallen into line. At
cabinet on
Post by Awake
September 23, before parliament was recalled from its summer break, Cook
"Personally I found it a grim meeting. Much of the two hours was taken
up
Post by jim
with
Post by Awake
a succession of loyalty oaths for Tony's line."
He says only Estelle Morris, then education secretary, "bravely" reported
public disquiet that Britain was simply following Bush.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
Awake
2003-10-07 00:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
amen to that,
only I don't think he's religious....just another terrorist from the Mid
east.
Killed any kids recently towel-head?
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.

I don't think the Jews are worth that.

If you feel otherwise then go visit the families of the wounded and the dead,
and tell them that the Jews are worth their loss.
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-07 03:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awake
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
What, are non-white Americans made of something special?
Post by Awake
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by Awake
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
What, are non-white Americans made of something special?
Post by Awake
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that IRAQ
PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the President and
Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to protect the United
States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-08 01:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that IRAQ
PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the President and
Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to protect the United
States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
You're confusing the soldiers (which the bigot referred to) with the
constitution. Those soldiers out there believe they are fighting for
freedom. Or at least they are being told to believe that. Whether they
are in reality or not is another story, but they are putting their lives
on the line for the freedom of others. From that perspective it's not
difficult to appreciate the job they're doing and support them in it,
but at the same time criticise the administration for their actions and
for taking steps that are contrary to freedom.

Malc
MusicMax
2003-10-08 02:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that IRAQ
PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the President and
Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to protect the United
States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
You're confusing the soldiers (which the bigot referred to) with the
constitution. Those soldiers out there believe they are fighting for
freedom.
How do you know this? What percentage of them have you talked to?
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Or at least they are being told to believe that.
Oh, so propaganda is justification for hundreds of deaths?
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Whether they
are in reality or not is another story,
That's an awfully cavalier attitude to have, but of course you're typing
from the safety of your home before popping a few Bud Sodas during
Cubs/Marlins.
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
but they are putting their lives
on the line for the freedom of others.
The job of the military is to protect AMERICAN LAND AND AMERICAN CITIZENS
IN AMERICA. This operation (and practically every military operation
since WWII) involves NONE OF THE ABOVE.

And the ABSOLUTE BEST THING WE CAN DO for our men & women in uniform is
make sure they are not being exploited for reasons unrelated to their
constitutional charge.
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
From that perspective it's not
difficult to appreciate the job they're doing and support them in it,
but at the same time criticise the administration for their actions and
for taking steps that are contrary to freedom.
Again, look to the Constitution. There are REASONS why it says that
Congress may "raise" armies (as opposed to "maintain"ing a Navy) and that
expenditures for such armies may only be for periods of less than two
years: First off, standing armies are antithetical to freedom. Second,
their presence encourages their use even when said use is unwarranted
(quick, tell me how many countries around the world in which US troops are
stationed). Third, the existence of a standing army leads to the GIs
becoming a de facto million-man union, with an increasingly competitive
(and therefore more expensive) compensation package - encouraging
recruitment in these allegedly "peaceful" times (no, Mr. Bush, we are not
at "war" because Congress (read the Constitution, Dubya) hasn't declared
one). So now the military is a jobs program as well.
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-08 14:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that IRAQ
PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the President and
Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to protect the United
States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
You're confusing the soldiers (which the bigot referred to) with the
constitution. Those soldiers out there believe they are fighting for
freedom.
How do you know this? What percentage of them have you talked to?
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Or at least they are being told to believe that.
Oh, so propaganda is justification for hundreds of deaths?
I'm a former Air Force sprog. Not American military though. I
understand terrorism: we had to check our car for suspicious packages
any time we wanted to use it. Everywhere we went, we had to go through
checkpoints were the car was checked further. That was the tip of the
iceberg. I think I have a reasonable understanding the situation you're
referring to too - maybe better than you. As for propaganda being
justification for deaths: you're just trying to put words in my mouth.
Of course I don't think that. But you carry on with you one-sided rants
- I don't see this OT thread going anywhere useful.

Malc
MusicMax
2003-10-08 15:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for
your freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that
IRAQ PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the
President and Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to
protect the United States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
You're confusing the soldiers (which the bigot referred to) with the
constitution. Those soldiers out there believe they are fighting for
freedom.
How do you know this? What percentage of them have you talked to?
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Or at least they are being told to believe that.
Oh, so propaganda is justification for hundreds of deaths?
I'm a former Air Force sprog. Not American military though. I
understand terrorism: we had to check our car for suspicious packages
any time we wanted to use it. Everywhere we went, we had to go
through checkpoints were the car was checked further. That was the
tip of the iceberg. I think I have a reasonable understanding the
situation you're referring to too - maybe better than you. As for
propaganda being justification for deaths: you're just trying to put
words in my mouth. Of course I don't think that. But you carry on
with you one-sided rants - I don't see this OT thread going anywhere
useful.
The checkpoints you speak of are IN OTHER COUNTRIES. YOU were the
invaders.

As far as terrorism: Where is the link between Iraq and 9/11? Al Qaeda?
Didn't think so.
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-08 15:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
The checkpoints you speak of are IN OTHER COUNTRIES. YOU were the
invaders.
Twaddle. This was in my own country. The terrorists were from another
country. Oh, and those terrorists got most of their funding from the US...
Post by MusicMax
As far as terrorism: Where is the link between Iraq and 9/11? Al Qaeda?
Didn't think so.
Did I even claim there was one? I can't see how I could have because
I've never believed there was one.

You're very presumptuous. Don't forget: "when you assume, you make an
ass out of you and me". Slow down; take a breath; think before you post.

Malc
Malcolm Ferguson
2003-10-08 14:50:55 UTC
Permalink
How do you know this? What percentage of them have you talked to?
I meant to mention in my other post that dad did a couple of tours in
the Persian Gulf in the 70's as part of field surgical teams. I think
his opinions and perspective are a good basis for my own opinions.

Malc
MusicMax
2003-10-08 15:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
How do you know this? What percentage of them have you talked to?
I meant to mention in my other post that dad did a couple of tours in
the Persian Gulf in the 70's as part of field surgical teams. I think
his opinions and perspective are a good basis for my own opinions.
My question did not refer to 30-year-old hearsay. But if that's all
you've got, well...
h
2003-10-08 07:55:38 UTC
Permalink
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed 'the
jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
He is a bigot and thats what i object to.
Post by MusicMax
Post by Malcolm Ferguson
Post by Awake
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
What, are non-white Americans made of something special?
Post by Awake
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
You're a small-minded bigot, but somebody will risk their life for your
freedom. Think about it.
Freedom from WHAT? The whole point of the original article is that IRAQ
PRESENTED NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. And since the President and
Congress are only authorized by the Constitution to protect the United
States, all actions in Iraq are unconstitutional.
Terry
2003-10-08 17:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed 'the
jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
He is a bigot and thats what i object to.
With one more lesson you would be a perfect idiot. Israel was created for
the Jews. Do you see any signs welcoming Muslims with open arms? But you
DO see signs welcoming Jews from around the world. Blaming Israel is
blaming the residents of Israel who are responsible for electing the
government - and this would be who? <--- I'm sure you can guess this one.
h
2003-10-08 21:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Terry, why don't you get your jackboots out of the cupboard and just admit
that you don't like Jews.
Israel allows the Arabs the vote.that's why there are Arab members of
parliament.
Not all Jew agree with the Israeli perspective, in the same way that not all
white people are bigots....but then you go and disprove the point.
Face it, you are a Jew-hater. Not in one of your posts do you use the word
'Arab' instead of 'Palestinian's, yet you seem to feel it is ok to use the
word 'Jew but not 'Israeli's.
Israel is the only democracy in the mid east that allows the vote to ALL
citizens, male, female, Arab, Jew,and Christian
You are a very ignorant man, You really should learn the reality of the
situation by going out there rather than being an armchair asshole.
My comments come from a 1st hand perspective of being posted out there, and
seeing what a pressure cooker the Israelis live in.
They were so grateful for our help, because that they have no doubt that the
stated aim of the Palestinians to 'push them into the sea' is a real desire
and ambition.
People like you have no experience of real life, but you spew out invidious
and skewed statements that only perpetuate bullshit.
Face it Terry, you are a bigot and a racist
Post by Terry
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed 'the
jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
He is a bigot and thats what i object to.
With one more lesson you would be a perfect idiot. Israel was created for
the Jews. Do you see any signs welcoming Muslims with open arms? But you
DO see signs welcoming Jews from around the world. Blaming Israel is
blaming the residents of Israel who are responsible for electing the
government - and this would be who? <--- I'm sure you can guess this one.
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-09 00:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Indeed, and Terry might also recall that the Jews founded Israel after a
certain group of enlightened Europeans herded them first into Ghettos, then
onto box cars, and then into ovens. That they defend themselves so
teaciously now is testament to their lack of faith in anyone ever coming to
their aid.
Post by h
Terry, why don't you get your jackboots out of the cupboard and just admit
that you don't like Jews.
Israel allows the Arabs the vote.that's why there are Arab members of
parliament.
Not all Jew agree with the Israeli perspective, in the same way that not all
white people are bigots....but then you go and disprove the point.
Face it, you are a Jew-hater. Not in one of your posts do you use the word
'Arab' instead of 'Palestinian's, yet you seem to feel it is ok to use the
word 'Jew but not 'Israeli's.
Israel is the only democracy in the mid east that allows the vote to ALL
citizens, male, female, Arab, Jew,and Christian
You are a very ignorant man, You really should learn the reality of the
situation by going out there rather than being an armchair asshole.
My comments come from a 1st hand perspective of being posted out there, and
seeing what a pressure cooker the Israelis live in.
They were so grateful for our help, because that they have no doubt that the
stated aim of the Palestinians to 'push them into the sea' is a real desire
and ambition.
People like you have no experience of real life, but you spew out invidious
and skewed statements that only perpetuate bullshit.
Face it Terry, you are a bigot and a racist
Post by Terry
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed
'the
Post by Terry
Post by h
jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
He is a bigot and thats what i object to.
With one more lesson you would be a perfect idiot. Israel was created for
the Jews. Do you see any signs welcoming Muslims with open arms? But you
DO see signs welcoming Jews from around the world. Blaming Israel is
blaming the residents of Israel who are responsible for electing the
government - and this would be who? <--- I'm sure you can guess this one.
h
2003-10-09 01:26:10 UTC
Permalink
well said Gerald,
they are to be admired and supported, not dragged-down by a simple-minded
bigot.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Indeed, and Terry might also recall that the Jews founded Israel after a
certain group of enlightened Europeans herded them first into Ghettos, then
onto box cars, and then into ovens. That they defend themselves so
teaciously now is testament to their lack of faith in anyone ever coming to
their aid.
Post by h
Terry, why don't you get your jackboots out of the cupboard and just admit
that you don't like Jews.
Israel allows the Arabs the vote.that's why there are Arab members of
parliament.
Not all Jew agree with the Israeli perspective, in the same way that not
all
Post by h
white people are bigots....but then you go and disprove the point.
Face it, you are a Jew-hater. Not in one of your posts do you use the word
'Arab' instead of 'Palestinian's, yet you seem to feel it is ok to use the
word 'Jew but not 'Israeli's.
Israel is the only democracy in the mid east that allows the vote to ALL
citizens, male, female, Arab, Jew,and Christian
You are a very ignorant man, You really should learn the reality of the
situation by going out there rather than being an armchair asshole.
My comments come from a 1st hand perspective of being posted out there,
and
Post by h
seeing what a pressure cooker the Israelis live in.
They were so grateful for our help, because that they have no doubt that
the
Post by h
stated aim of the Palestinians to 'push them into the sea' is a real
desire
Post by h
and ambition.
People like you have no experience of real life, but you spew out
invidious
Post by h
and skewed statements that only perpetuate bullshit.
Face it Terry, you are a bigot and a racist
Post by Terry
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed
'the
Post by Terry
Post by h
jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
He is a bigot and thats what i object to.
With one more lesson you would be a perfect idiot. Israel was created
for
Post by h
Post by Terry
the Jews. Do you see any signs welcoming Muslims with open arms? But
you
Post by h
Post by Terry
DO see signs welcoming Jews from around the world. Blaming Israel is
blaming the residents of Israel who are responsible for electing the
government - and this would be who? <--- I'm sure you can guess this
one.
Terry
2003-10-09 02:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Indeed, and Terry might also recall that the Jews founded Israel after a
certain group of enlightened Europeans herded them first into Ghettos, then
onto box cars, and then into ovens. That they defend themselves so
teaciously now is testament to their lack of faith in anyone ever coming to
their aid.
Oh, so it was Hitler that made Israelites take away Palestinian land,
bulldoze their homes and herd the Palestinians into camps.
MusicMax
2003-10-09 03:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Indeed, and Terry might also recall that the Jews founded Israel
after a certain group of enlightened Europeans herded them first
into Ghettos,
then
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
onto box cars, and then into ovens. That they defend themselves so
teaciously now is testament to their lack of faith in anyone ever
coming
to
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
their aid.
Oh, so it was Hitler that made Israelites take away Palestinian land,
bulldoze their homes and herd the Palestinians into camps.
The world community liberated the concentration camps and created a
Jewish state within three years of the end of WWII. In contrast, Israel
has engaged in military occupation for THIRTY SIX YEARS.
Bill Ditmire
2003-10-09 04:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MusicMax
In contrast, Israel
has engaged in military occupation for THIRTY SIX YEARS.
A brief history lesson: Israel seized the "occuppied territories" after being
attacked by all its Arab neighbors. They have kept the lands under occupation
for the sole purpose of security.

If you try to rob your local Korean grocer, please DO NOT be surprised if he
drives you out of his store and keeps your gun and ski mask.

The second time you try to rob him and his family, pr if you are as persistent
as the Arabs, the third or fourth time, DO NOT be surprised if his response
gets even uglier each time.

Bill Ditmire
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-09 04:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Bravo, Bill!
Post by Bill Ditmire
Post by MusicMax
In contrast, Israel
has engaged in military occupation for THIRTY SIX YEARS.
A brief history lesson: Israel seized the "occuppied territories" after being
attacked by all its Arab neighbors. They have kept the lands under occupation
for the sole purpose of security.
If you try to rob your local Korean grocer, please DO NOT be surprised if he
drives you out of his store and keeps your gun and ski mask.
The second time you try to rob him and his family, pr if you are as persistent
as the Arabs, the third or fourth time, DO NOT be surprised if his response
gets even uglier each time.
Bill Ditmire
Terry
2003-10-09 12:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Bravo, Bill!
Post by Bill Ditmire
Post by MusicMax
In contrast, Israel
has engaged in military occupation for THIRTY SIX YEARS.
A brief history lesson: Israel seized the "occuppied territories" after
being
Post by Bill Ditmire
attacked by all its Arab neighbors. They have kept the lands under
occupation
Post by Bill Ditmire
for the sole purpose of security.
Is it logical to built satellite communities and intersperse them in enemy
territory? Because I'm missing the logic here - it sounds pretty idiotic to
expect MORE security by placing civilians into enemy territory. It seems
even more ludicrus to bulldoze their homes then build over top - essentially
stirring up a hornets nest, and not expecting retaliation.

You guys must take a lot of stupid pills to find that logical.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Post by Bill Ditmire
If you try to rob your local Korean grocer, please DO NOT be surprised
if
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
he
Post by Bill Ditmire
drives you out of his store and keeps your gun and ski mask.
Hmmm, but what if he follows you home, then brings a bulldozer and flattens
your home, then the home of all your neighbours and places them into
concentration camps (or whatever they call them now), and builds a new house
on your land?
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Post by Bill Ditmire
The second time you try to rob him and his family, pr if you are as
persistent
Post by Bill Ditmire
as the Arabs, the third or fourth time, DO NOT be surprised if his
response
Post by Bill Ditmire
gets even uglier each time.
Bill Ditmire
We have laws to prevent idiots from taking over. Unfortunately these laws
are not enforced and we end up with UN Security Council Resolutions that are
simply ignored. USA is the worst in this regard, as they 'use' resolutions
to wage war, yet ignore others that try to prevent war.

Like using the resolution to wage war with Iraq, while ignoring this
resolution:

UN Security Council Resolution 50/29 C:

"The Assembly had reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the occupied
Palestinian territory and other Arab territories were illegal and an
obstacle to achieving comprehensive peace. Noting with satisfaction the
return of deportees to the occupied Palestinian territory and calling upon
Israel to facilitate the return of the remainder, it had further called upon
Israel to accelerate the release of all Palestinians arbitrarily detained or
imprisoned, and to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Palestinian
people, pending the extension of the self-government arrangements to the
rest of the West Bank."
---

You just go ahead and continue spreading your lies - anyone outside USA will
want to hear the whole truth, not just the truth Bush Administration tells
us to believe.
Terry
2003-10-09 12:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Ditmire
Post by MusicMax
In contrast, Israel
has engaged in military occupation for THIRTY SIX YEARS.
A brief history lesson: Israel seized the "occuppied territories" after being
attacked by all its Arab neighbors. They have kept the lands under occupation
for the sole purpose of security.
If you try to rob your local Korean grocer, please DO NOT be surprised if he
drives you out of his store and keeps your gun and ski mask.
They didn't take Palestinian weapons - they went in and bulldozed their
homes and built settlements over top.

Don't be surprised if a grocer bulldozes a robber's home if the community
get's really, really pissed at the grocer and kicks his ass!
Post by Bill Ditmire
The second time you try to rob him and his family, pr if you are as persistent
as the Arabs, the third or fourth time, DO NOT be surprised if his response
gets even uglier each time.
Bill Ditmire
Ugly is one thing, but bulldozing innocent victims' homes and stealing their
land AND other Palestinian homes is beyond reason.
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-09 03:49:37 UTC
Permalink
The Palestinians fled their own lands at the urgings of theirs and other
inept, duplicitous Arab leaders, who then abandoned them. They refused to
join in the formation of a NATION, where simply a TERRITORY once existed.

There has never been a NATION called Palestine, it was always an occupied
territory of one Arab or Turk power. No NATION of Palestine was invaded, nor
were any SOVEREIGN lands TAKEN...simply stated the poor dumb bastards packed
up and LEFT because their so-called leaders assured them they'd soon
slaughter all the Jews. Looks like they were wrong.

Anyone who defends a barbarous bunch of ignorant Arab morons who send their
own children off to kill themselves and bus loads of innocent men, women and
children ought to think deeply as to what caused them to become so
depravity of thought.
Post by Terry
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Indeed, and Terry might also recall that the Jews founded Israel after a
certain group of enlightened Europeans herded them first into Ghettos,
then
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
onto box cars, and then into ovens. That they defend themselves so
teaciously now is testament to their lack of faith in anyone ever coming
to
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
their aid.
Oh, so it was Hitler that made Israelites take away Palestinian land,
bulldoze their homes and herd the Palestinians into camps.
MusicMax
2003-10-09 01:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed
'the jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
There are times when the two are essentially interchangeable (for
example, when discussing Israel's prohibition on Jew-Gentile weddings),
and times when they are not (when dealing with political and foreign
aid/policy issues).
h
2003-10-09 08:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Max you asshole,
Most religions try to keep within their own faiths. It is nothing other than
trying to preserve their historic ties and birthright.
Each time that you post, the level of your ignorance rises
Post by MusicMax
Post by h
agreed, but the asshole 'awake' did the usual 'nazi thang' and blamed
'the jews' for it - not the israelies, but 'the jews'.
There are times when the two are essentially interchangeable (for
example, when discussing Israel's prohibition on Jew-Gentile weddings),
and times when they are not (when dealing with political and foreign
aid/policy issues).
h
2003-10-07 15:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a member of
the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with Jews in my unit
and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they have
proved it time and again.
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold their
own. Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from terrorist
attacks?
You are a small-minded bigot, go back to small-town, USA and play with your
little dicky, because a nobody with ignorant opinions like you certainly
couldn't have served in MY army. You are most likely still a virgin, with
nothing better to do than spout your crap. Never mind Bush (who I personally
dislike), the US would be better off with assholes like you thrown out.
ASSHOLE!!!
Post by Awake
Post by h
amen to that,
only I don't think he's religious....just another terrorist from the Mid
east.
Killed any kids recently towel-head?
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
If you feel otherwise then go visit the families of the wounded and the dead,
and tell them that the Jews are worth their loss.
Terry
2003-10-07 15:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a member of
the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with Jews in my unit
and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they have
proved it time and again.
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold their
own. Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from terrorist
attacks?
What an uninformed idiot to suggest Israel is ALONE! They ARE USA in the
middle-east. Their military flies Apache helicopters, drives American army
tanks, fires American made missles out of American missile launchers, US
machine guns and munitions...

Israel has invaded another nation and are facing opposition. This is
unexpected?
Post by h
You are a small-minded bigot, go back to small-town, USA and play with your
little dicky, because a nobody with ignorant opinions like you certainly
couldn't have served in MY army. You are most likely still a virgin, with
nothing better to do than spout your crap. Never mind Bush (who I personally
dislike), the US would be better off with assholes like you thrown out.
ASSHOLE!!!
Post by Awake
Post by h
amen to that,
only I don't think he's religious....just another terrorist from the Mid
east.
Killed any kids recently towel-head?
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
If you feel otherwise then go visit the families of the wounded and the
dead,
Post by Awake
and tell them that the Jews are worth their loss.
h
2003-10-07 16:54:43 UTC
Permalink
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the results
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel. By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever Islam
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
Post by Terry
Post by h
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a member of
the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with Jews in my unit
and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they have
proved it time and again.
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold their
own. Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from terrorist
attacks?
What an uninformed idiot to suggest Israel is ALONE! They ARE USA in the
middle-east. Their military flies Apache helicopters, drives American army
tanks, fires American made missles out of American missile launchers, US
machine guns and munitions...
Israel has invaded another nation and are facing opposition. This is
unexpected?
Post by h
You are a small-minded bigot, go back to small-town, USA and play with
your
Post by h
little dicky, because a nobody with ignorant opinions like you certainly
couldn't have served in MY army. You are most likely still a virgin, with
nothing better to do than spout your crap. Never mind Bush (who I
personally
Post by h
dislike), the US would be better off with assholes like you thrown out.
ASSHOLE!!!
Post by Awake
Post by h
amen to that,
only I don't think he's religious....just another terrorist from the
Mid
Post by h
Post by Awake
Post by h
east.
Killed any kids recently towel-head?
I am a white American, just like those soldiers losing their arms, legs
eyes and their lives.
I don't think the Jews are worth that.
If you feel otherwise then go visit the families of the wounded and the
dead,
Post by Awake
and tell them that the Jews are worth their loss.
Terry
2003-10-07 17:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the results
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel got
the heck out of Palestine!

It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine, and
there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them the
reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as the
anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will change
just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of Palestine!
Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because Israel = USA.
Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as are the arms and
munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine guns...). Instead of
investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be investing in peace! Get
your damn weapons out of the middle-east for starters. Ask the UN to send
in peace-keepers. But we all know that Americans don't want Israel to lose
what they have taken by force.

And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go on
supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't that
special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.

Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead. The
pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever Islam
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine (and
could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did you
read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you didn't
right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation that was
invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very peacefully.
Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but you have to
stop waving your flag and machine guns around!

We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've met to
be very good people.
h
2003-10-07 19:48:58 UTC
Permalink
what planet are you on??

There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'. There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948 called Israel. The Arabs immediately invaded it.
The Jews fought back and survived. The next couple of occasions, they were
invaded, they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
Based on the premise that Israel invaded a non-existent land called
Palestine, which still does not exist today, (and even if it did, in 1948
the land allocated to the Palestinians was 78% trans-Jordan), the whole of
your argument in uninformed, ignorant specious bullshit.
Maybe we should vacate the US in favour of the Native Americans?
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel got
the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine, and
there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them the
reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as the
anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will change
just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of Palestine!
Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because Israel = USA.
Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as are the arms an
d
Post by h
munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine guns...). Instead of
investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be investing in peace!
Get
Post by h
your damn weapons out of the middle-east for starters. Ask the UN to send
in peace-keepers. But we all know that Americans don't want Israel to lose
what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go on
supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't that
special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The
Post by h
pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine (and
could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did you
read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you didn't
right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation that was
invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very peacefully.
Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but you have to
stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've met to
be very good people.
Terry
2003-10-07 20:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
what planet are you on??
There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'.
Then tell me why every nation recognizes West Bank as Palestine?

Why does your Customs Tariff class goods exported from West Bank as
originating in Palestine? Why does it have its own country code?

DUH!
Post by h
There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948
And the UN also passed resolutions calling for Israel to get their butts out
of Palestine - West Bank.

UN Security Council Resolution 50/29 C:

"The Assembly had reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the occupied
Palestinian territory and other Arab territories were illegal and an
obstacle to achieving comprehensive peace. Noting with satisfaction the
return of deportees to the occupied Palestinian territory and calling upon
Israel to facilitate the return of the remainder, it had further called upon
Israel to accelerate the release of all Palestinians arbitrarily detained or
imprisoned, and to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Palestinian
people, pending the extension of the self-government arrangements to the
rest of the West Bank."

Here's another excerpt from the UN website:

Fourth Committee - 4 - Press Release GA/SPD/102 21st Meeting (PM) 25
November 1996 "The other recommendations, the Special Committee appeals to
the Government of Israel to stop establishing and expanding settlements. The
ongoing policy of land confiscation and the construction of bypass roads
should be discontinued, and Arabs in East Jerusalem should not be pressured
to sell their houses to members of the Jewish community. The Government
should refrain from the destruction of property, such as the demolition of
houses"
Post by h
called Israel. The Arabs immediately invaded it.
The Jews fought back and survived. The next couple of occasions, they were
invaded, they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
Based on the premise that Israel invaded a non-existent land called
Palestine, which still does not exist today, (and even if it did, in 1948
the land allocated to the Palestinians was 78% trans-Jordan), the whole of
your argument in uninformed, ignorant specious bullshit.
Maybe we should vacate the US in favour of the Native Americans?
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
Maybe you should go to school or read a book idiot!
Post by h
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow
up
Post by h
Post by h
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel
got
Post by h
the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine,
and
Post by h
there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them the
reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as the
anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will change
just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of
Palestine!
Post by h
Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because Israel =
USA.
Post by h
Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as are the arms an
d
Post by h
munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine guns...). Instead of
investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be investing in peace!
Get
Post by h
your damn weapons out of the middle-east for starters. Ask the UN to send
in peace-keepers. But we all know that Americans don't want Israel to
lose
Post by h
what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go
on
Post by h
supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't that
special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who
will
Post by h
Post by h
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The
Post by h
pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and
opposite
Post by h
reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine
(and
Post by h
could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did you
read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you didn't
right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation that
was
Post by h
invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be
our
Post by h
Post by h
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of
our
Post by h
Post by h
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very
peacefully.
Post by h
Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but you have to
stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've
met
Post by h
to
Post by h
be very good people.
h
2003-10-08 07:58:17 UTC
Permalink
There is no county of Palestine.
You are an ignorant asshole.
My car originates in Bavaria. By your argument, that is a country as well.
Get a life, and a few brain cells you ignoramus.
Post by Terry
Post by h
what planet are you on??
There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'.
Then tell me why every nation recognizes West Bank as Palestine?
Why does your Customs Tariff class goods exported from West Bank as
originating in Palestine? Why does it have its own country code?
DUH!
Post by h
There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948
And the UN also passed resolutions calling for Israel to get their butts out
of Palestine - West Bank.
"The Assembly had reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the occupied
Palestinian territory and other Arab territories were illegal and an
obstacle to achieving comprehensive peace. Noting with satisfaction the
return of deportees to the occupied Palestinian territory and calling upon
Israel to facilitate the return of the remainder, it had further called upon
Israel to accelerate the release of all Palestinians arbitrarily detained or
imprisoned, and to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Palestinian
people, pending the extension of the self-government arrangements to the
rest of the West Bank."
Fourth Committee - 4 - Press Release GA/SPD/102 21st Meeting (PM) 25
November 1996 "The other recommendations, the Special Committee appeals to
the Government of Israel to stop establishing and expanding settlements. The
ongoing policy of land confiscation and the construction of bypass roads
should be discontinued, and Arabs in East Jerusalem should not be pressured
to sell their houses to members of the Jewish community. The Government
should refrain from the destruction of property, such as the demolition of
houses"
Post by h
called Israel. The Arabs immediately invaded it.
The Jews fought back and survived. The next couple of occasions, they were
invaded, they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
Based on the premise that Israel invaded a non-existent land called
Palestine, which still does not exist today, (and even if it did, in 1948
the land allocated to the Palestinians was 78% trans-Jordan), the whole of
your argument in uninformed, ignorant specious bullshit.
Maybe we should vacate the US in favour of the Native Americans?
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
Maybe you should go to school or read a book idiot!
Post by h
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow
up
Post by h
Post by h
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel
got
Post by h
the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine,
and
Post by h
there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them the
reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as the
anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will
change
Post by h
Post by h
just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians,
this
Post by h
Post by h
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of
Palestine!
Post by h
Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because Israel =
USA.
Post by h
Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as are the
arms
Post by Terry
an
Post by h
d
Post by h
munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine guns...). Instead of
investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be investing in peace!
Get
Post by h
your damn weapons out of the middle-east for starters. Ask the UN to
send
Post by h
Post by h
in peace-keepers. But we all know that Americans don't want Israel to
lose
Post by h
what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go
on
Post by h
supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't
that
Post by h
Post by h
special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who
will
Post by h
Post by h
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been
invaded.
Post by h
Post by h
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The
Post by h
pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and
opposite
Post by h
reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine
(and
Post by h
could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did you
read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you didn't
right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation that
was
Post by h
invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be
our
Post by h
Post by h
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of
our
Post by h
Post by h
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very
peacefully.
Post by h
Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but you have to
stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are
not
Post by h
Post by h
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've
met
Post by h
to
Post by h
be very good people.
Terry
2003-10-08 17:48:11 UTC
Permalink
"h" <h-***@nospam-btinternet.com> wrote in message news:bm0g2p$984$***@sparta.btinternet.com...

Stupidity. Plonk!
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
what planet are you on??
There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'.
The word "Palestine" is an evolution of the Biblican "Philistines".
Post by h
There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948 called Israel.
Yeah, have you ever LOOKED at Partition Plan 184? It calls for an Israel
HALF its current size and a QUARTER of the size of the occupied
territories.
Post by h
The next couple of occasions, they were
invaded,
Wrong. Israel started the Six-Day War in 1967.
Post by h
they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
Hmmm...land is the spoils of war? How much of Germany, Japan and Italy
does the United States and Britain occupy?
Post by h
the whole of
your argument in uninformed, ignorant specious bullshit.
Maybe we should vacate the US in favour of the Native Americans?
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
Once again, those devoid of intellect resort to ad hominem.
h
2003-10-08 08:03:48 UTC
Permalink
your argument is a joke.
Palestinians are NOT descended from the Philistines.
If you are talking about the spoils of war, lets give back the USA to the
Native Americans, Canada to the Eskimos etc. We are all originally
Europeans...lets go back there - asshole. As for this simplistic, maybe you
just don't have an answer to this?
Israel started one war in 1967. After they were invaded in 48, 56, 73...etc.
it was a preemptive strike - no problem there.
Max, when the day comes...assholes like you will be the 1st ones up against
the wall, with their hands in the air asking 'why me?'
Grow up!!
Post by MusicMax
Post by h
what planet are you on??
There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'.
The word "Palestine" is an evolution of the Biblican "Philistines".
Post by h
There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948 called Israel.
Yeah, have you ever LOOKED at Partition Plan 184? It calls for an Israel
HALF its current size and a QUARTER of the size of the occupied
territories.
Post by h
The next couple of occasions, they were
invaded,
Wrong. Israel started the Six-Day War in 1967.
Post by h
they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
Hmmm...land is the spoils of war? How much of Germany, Japan and Italy
does the United States and Britain occupy?
Post by h
the whole of
your argument in uninformed, ignorant specious bullshit.
Maybe we should vacate the US in favour of the Native Americans?
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
Once again, those devoid of intellect resort to ad hominem.
126
2003-10-09 02:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
There is not, nor has there ever been a 'Palestine'.
Besides the point, Israel is out of the bounds recognized by
Arabs.
Post by h
There was a country
mandated my the UN in 1948 called Israel.
What if the UN mandated an independent Hispanic nation
in California? Would we heed this mandate? Truman was saved
in an election by $2 million by a Jewish donor, guess what the favour
was in return?
Post by h
The Arabs immediately invaded it.
The Jews fought back and survived.
The next couple of occasions, they were invaded,
Israel was set up by European Jews, who supposedly had ancestors
living in Israel 2000 years ago. So after 2000 years away it is alright
for them to come back and kick out the current occupants? Those
Californians should shut up about all the Hispanics coming to California,
they are reclaiming land that was their only 150 years ago, no matter how
it became American.

Jews are Semites, like Arabs, you couldn't thell them apart, and Israel was
NOT set up in '48 by the Jews that were already living there but by Jews
from Europe. So Jews in Europe suffered, why should the Arabs in Palestine
pay for this suffering? Why is it so hard to understand why Arabs can't stand
Israel? At least they agree to the origininal boundaries.

I was in a store run by what looked like Arabs, but they were speaking Hebrew,
and I asked them if they were Jews. They were surprised that I recognized the language
and asked me how I recognized it. I told them I have Jewish friends, many of whom are
Russian Jews who lived in Israel and thus learned Hebrew. But I said I realized that THEY
ARE NOT REAL JEWS! And he was very surprised by my answer, saying he'd never met
anyone in Canada, save other REAL SEMITIC Israeli Jews who realized the difference, that
REAL Jews are SEMITES.
Post by h
they actually captured land - the spoils of war.
If that is alright for Israel, why was that not OK for Germany in WWII?
Post by h
You are simplistic asshole who needs a dose of reality
<IGNORE>
h
2003-10-07 19:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their list.
I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee your family
killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel got
the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine, and
there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them the
reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as the
anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will change
just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of Palestine!
Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because Israel = USA.
Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as are the arms and
munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine guns...). Instead of
investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be investing in peace!
Get
Post by h
your damn weapons out of the middle-east for starters. Ask the UN to send
in peace-keepers. But we all know that Americans don't want Israel to lose
what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go on
supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't that
special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The
Post by h
pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine (and
could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did you
read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you didn't
right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation that was
invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very peacefully.
Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but you have to
stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've met to
be very good people.
Terry
2003-10-07 20:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their list.
I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee your family
killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their
list. I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee
your family killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
Nothing except the fact that adopting a Jeffersonian foreign policy
("Free trade and neutrality with all nations, entangling alliances with
none") would have prevented 9/11.
h
2003-10-08 08:06:25 UTC
Permalink
ye...ok.
In a classroom maybe...the real world doesn't work like that
Post by MusicMax
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their
list. I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee
your family killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
Nothing except the fact that adopting a Jeffersonian foreign policy
("Free trade and neutrality with all nations, entangling alliances with
none") would have prevented 9/11.
MusicMax
2003-10-09 01:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
ye...ok.
In a classroom maybe...the real world doesn't work like that
As founder of UVa and third President of the United States, Jefferson knew
of both.
Post by h
Post by MusicMax
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their
list. I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee
your family killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
Nothing except the fact that adopting a Jeffersonian foreign policy
("Free trade and neutrality with all nations, entangling alliances with
none") would have prevented 9/11.
h
2003-10-09 09:05:07 UTC
Permalink
yeah...but he's dead, and so are the majority of his simplistic beliefs
Post by MusicMax
Post by h
ye...ok.
In a classroom maybe...the real world doesn't work like that
As founder of UVa and third President of the United States, Jefferson knew
of both.
Post by h
Post by MusicMax
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their
list. I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee
your family killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
Nothing except the fact that adopting a Jeffersonian foreign policy
("Free trade and neutrality with all nations, entangling alliances with
none") would have prevented 9/11.
h
2003-10-08 08:05:46 UTC
Permalink
ask the assholes like Bin Laden who blames the US for Israel's actions.
You have such a black and white view of life, it is amazing that you ever
learned to write
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their list.
I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee your family
killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
Terry
2003-10-08 17:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
ask the assholes like Bin Laden who blames the US for Israel's actions.
You have such a black and white view of life, it is amazing that you ever
learned to write
Your writing appears to be black & white as well - what's your point?

My point is simple - Americans believe everything they do is without
consequence and that there is no equal reaction to their actions. Americans
simply believe they can defy natural laws, in addition to international
laws.
Post by h
Post by Terry
Post by h
Oh...and by the way, you can't even live peacefully with the
French-Canadians let lone anyone else.
You are totally deluded if you don't believe that Canada is on their
list.
Post by Terry
Post by h
I wonder if you would have felt the same on 9/11 if it had bee your
family
Post by Terry
Post by h
killed.
I pity you your innocence and naivety
And 9/11 has WHAT to do with Israel invading Palestine?
f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
2003-10-07 22:18:58 UTC
Permalink
There is no Palestine. It never was a country. The people were kicked out
of other ARAB countries, and now they blame Israel. Its hilarious!

israel could blow them off the planet if they wanted to, so all this talk
of israel being the aggressor, seeking territory, yada yada - is crap.
Same with the US and iraq, if we wanted their oil we would have taken it
in 91. You people are denser than rock.
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel
got the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine,
and there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them
the reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as
the anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will
change just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of
Palestine! Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because
Israel = USA. Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as
are the arms and munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine
guns...). Instead of investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be
investing in peace! Get your damn weapons out of the middle-east for
starters. Ask the UN to send in peace-keepers. But we all know that
Americans don't want Israel to lose what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go
on supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't
that special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and
opposite reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine
(and could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did
you read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you
didn't right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation
that was invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very
peacefully. Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but
you have to stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've met
to be very good people.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Fred Emmerich
***@sbcglobal.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
MusicMax
2003-10-07 22:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
There is no Palestine. It never was a country.
The United Nations and 99% of the countries of the world beg to differ.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
The people were kicked out
of other ARAB countries,
Cite?

Didn't think so.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
and now they blame Israel. Its hilarious!
Yeah, it's just a barrel of laughs for the 484 children killed by
Israel:

http://www.whowillsavethechildren.org/remember2000.html

I take it you were cheering as the planes strafed the USS Liberty, too.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
israel could blow them off the planet if they wanted to, so all this
talk of israel being the aggressor, seeking territory, yada yada - is
crap.
You obviously don't know the history of the Six Day War.

You obviously have never looked at UN Partition Plan 184.

You obviously have never read United Nations Security Council
resolutions.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
Same with the US and iraq, if we wanted their oil we would have taken
it in 91. You people are denser than rock.
Ad hominem in place of rational discourse. I sense a pattern here...
h
2003-10-08 08:11:52 UTC
Permalink
OK, The Palestinians are so popular, they were kicked out of:
Tunisia,
Lebanon,
They are treated as second class citizens in all Arab lands. The Arabs keep
them in refugee camps as political pawns...it suits them.
What about the Israeli children killed by suicide bombers?
5 on Saturday alone - and that was DELIBERATE!!
The Israelis have acted with massive restraint. They could wipe out the
entire problem in 60 seconds if they wish to do so, and have been able to do
so for 30 years.
Max, I suspect that you are nothing other than a Palestinian yourself, -
nobody else could spout such crap as you do, and believe it!
Post by MusicMax
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
There is no Palestine. It never was a country.
The United Nations and 99% of the countries of the world beg to differ.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
The people were kicked out
of other ARAB countries,
Cite?
Didn't think so.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
and now they blame Israel. Its hilarious!
Yeah, it's just a barrel of laughs for the 484 children killed by
http://www.whowillsavethechildren.org/remember2000.html
I take it you were cheering as the planes strafed the USS Liberty, too.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
israel could blow them off the planet if they wanted to, so all this
talk of israel being the aggressor, seeking territory, yada yada - is
crap.
You obviously don't know the history of the Six Day War.
You obviously have never looked at UN Partition Plan 184.
You obviously have never read United Nations Security Council
resolutions.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
Same with the US and iraq, if we wanted their oil we would have taken
it in 91. You people are denser than rock.
Ad hominem in place of rational discourse. I sense a pattern here...
h
2003-10-08 08:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Finally.....someone who can see the whole picture.
Post by f***@sbcglobal.spamnet
There is no Palestine. It never was a country. The people were kicked out
of other ARAB countries, and now they blame Israel. Its hilarious!
israel could blow them off the planet if they wanted to, so all this talk
of israel being the aggressor, seeking territory, yada yada - is crap.
Same with the US and iraq, if we wanted their oil we would have taken it
in 91. You people are denser than rock.
Post by h
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the
results
Post by h
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace
If I were in Arab shoes I would not want peace either - NOT UNTIL Israel
got the heck out of Palestine!
It's simpler than Americans want to believe - Israel invaded Palestine,
and there is resistance. If Israel gets out, they will take with them
the reason that most Palestinians fight! There will still be clashes as
the anger and resentment begin to fade, but after a generation it will
change just as America's relationship with Japan changed.
Post by h
, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel.
While the destruction of Israel is probably a dream of Palestinians, this
thought would fade quickly if Israel were to get the hell out of
Palestine! Of course Palestinians know they can't destroy Israel, because
Israel = USA. Billions of US dollars are pumped into Israel annually, as
are the arms and munitions (army tanks, apache helicopters, machine
guns...). Instead of investing in war in the middle-east, USA SHOULD be
investing in peace! Get your damn weapons out of the middle-east for
starters. Ask the UN to send in peace-keepers. But we all know that
Americans don't want Israel to lose what they have taken by force.
And because USA doesn't give a care about what the world thinks, they go
on supporting the illegal occupation (invasion) of Palestine. And isn't
that special that you have your own word for an invasion - you call it an
'occupation' as if someone is doing Palestine a favour.
Post by h
By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
Don't confuse the issue of terrorism with a nation that has been invaded.
Palestine was not invaded by muslims - it was invaded by Israel.
Just keep in mind that history repeats itself. Life travels upwards in
spirals, and only by looking back can you better judge what lay ahead.
The pendulum always swings back. To every action there is an equal and
opposite reaction.
Post by h
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever
Islam
Post by h
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
USA invaded Iraq - not the other way around. Israel invaded Palestine
(and could not have done so without USA) - not the other way around. Did
you read somewhere about a Palestinian occupation in Israel? No, you
didn't right? So you got it backwards; Islam is in Palestine, the nation
that was invaded by Israel.
Post by h
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
In Canada we live side by side with Islamic families - and very
peacefully. Follow our example and you will find peace IS possible - but
you have to stop waving your flag and machine guns around!
We gladly welcome Muslims into Canada and don't fear them at all.
Terrorists come in more than one religion and ethnicity. Muslims are not
'out to get us' like some paranoid people think. I judge people as
individuals, and can honestly say that I have found most Muslims I've met
to be very good people.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Fred Emmerich
-----------------------------------------------------------
ttt
2003-10-07 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:54:43 +0000 (UTC), "h"
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the results
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel. By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever Islam
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
You know what you are? A good GWB american, the perfect idiot, the
epitamy of a mindless robot.
h
2003-10-07 19:53:51 UTC
Permalink
and you, like your name implies are a tit
Post by ttt
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:54:43 +0000 (UTC), "h"
Post by h
It amazes me that people like you ever got out of puberty, Terry. Grow up
and loo at what's really going on.
There is opposition and there is terrorism. I have seen 1st hand the results
of both.
The Arabs don't want peace, they will only be satisfied with the total
destruction of Israel. By the way, for all the small minded assholes out
there, if the Arabs get their way in Israel...and Nigeria.... and
Kashmir..... and Sudan.....and Indonesia, Philippines, etc etc....who will
there be then.....us!
These people create conflict wherever they are in the world, wherever Islam
meets any other religion, there is disaster.
Get a life, and wake up, because if assholes like you don't, it'll be our
children and grandchildren fighting the 'hordes of Islam', instead of our
friends and proxies the Israelis
You know what you are? A good GWB american, the perfect idiot, the
epitamy of a mindless robot.
JLeonard
2003-10-07 19:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ttt
You know what you are? A good GWB american, the perfect idiot, the
epitamy of a mindless robot.
guess what, dipshit? At least this idiot can spell 'epitome,' which puts you
somewhere close to 'brain-dead.'
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by h
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a
member of the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with
Jews in my unit and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they
have proved it time and again.
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold
their own. Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from
terrorist attacks?
What an uninformed idiot to suggest Israel is ALONE! They ARE USA in
the middle-east. Their military flies Apache helicopters, drives
American army tanks, fires American made missles out of American
missile launchers, US machine guns and munitions...
And an Israeli used an American bulldozer to murder Rachel Corrie.
MusicMax
2003-10-07 21:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a
member of the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with
Jews in my unit and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they
have proved it time and again.
Time and again? How? Name one instance where Israel has helped the
United States.

Name that instance right here:

_____________________________________________________________


Now balance that instance (if you can in fact even name it) against the
USS Liberty and the Jonathan Pollard case ("the most damaging episode to
US National Security imaginable", according to former Secy. of State
Caspar Weinberger).
Post by h
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold
their own.
Thanks to $100,000,000,000.00 in US Tax Money.
Post by h
Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from terrorist
attacks?
Take a look at www.whowillsavethechildren.org

More than FOUR TIMES the number of Palestinian children killed by Israel
than vice-versa.

But don't let facts get in the way of your rabid hatred...
Post by h
You are a small-minded bigot, go back to small-town, USA and play with
your little dicky, because a nobody with ignorant opinions like you
certainly couldn't have served in MY army. You are most likely still a
virgin, with nothing better to do than spout your crap. Never mind
Bush (who I personally dislike), the US would be better off with
assholes like you thrown out.
As usual, those without facts and the capacity for rational discourse
devolve to ad hominem and name-calling.
Post by h
ASSHOLE!!!
At least you have an appropriate .sig
h
2003-10-08 08:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Being the only outpost of democracy in a region of dictators. Lending
support for any US operations in the Mid-East. I've been a part of those ops
and have seen it 1st hand.
You are what is commonly known as a PLONK - 'person of little or no
knowledge'.
The only place you can get a platform is here, because your arguments are
just bullshit
Post by MusicMax
Post by h
Well..MR White American.....so am I...and, I spent 15 years as a
member of the Armed Forces, and was quite happy to die for, and with
Jews in my unit and in the region.
They are the only true friends of the US in the Mid-East, and they
have proved it time and again.
Time and again? How? Name one instance where Israel has helped the
United States.
_____________________________________________________________
Now balance that instance (if you can in fact even name it) against the
USS Liberty and the Jonathan Pollard case ("the most damaging episode to
US National Security imaginable", according to former Secy. of State
Caspar Weinberger).
Post by h
They are outnumbered buy a factor of 30-1, and still manage to hold
their own.
Thanks to $100,000,000,000.00 in US Tax Money.
Post by h
Lets see how you would react to losing children daily from terrorist
attacks?
Take a look at www.whowillsavethechildren.org
More than FOUR TIMES the number of Palestinian children killed by Israel
than vice-versa.
But don't let facts get in the way of your rabid hatred...
Post by h
You are a small-minded bigot, go back to small-town, USA and play with
your little dicky, because a nobody with ignorant opinions like you
certainly couldn't have served in MY army. You are most likely still a
virgin, with nothing better to do than spout your crap. Never mind
Bush (who I personally dislike), the US would be better off with
assholes like you thrown out.
As usual, those without facts and the capacity for rational discourse
devolve to ad hominem and name-calling.
Post by h
ASSHOLE!!!
At least you have an appropriate .sig
MusicMax
2003-10-09 01:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h
Being the only outpost of democracy in a region of dictators.
A recent report commissioned by Israel's own government found a systematic
pattern of discrimination by the government against Arabs. Of course,
outlawing Jew-Gentile marriages isn't characteristic of an "outpost of
democracy" either.
Post by h
Lending
support for any US operations in the Mid-East.
By attacking the USS Liberty? By engaging in "the most damaging episode
to US National Security imaginable"?

There ARE no "US operations in the MidEast" for Israel to support - only
ISRAELI operations that the US supports.
Luvless
2003-10-06 23:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awake
When will the Jews in high places be held accountable
for their murderous behavior?
Yesterday wouldn't have been too soon.

But take heart, ITZ COMING!!!!!!

-Luvless

-------
"The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so
desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it
could incur any opposition other than from committed
white supremacists." - Dr. Noel Ignatiev; Harvard U.
jim
2003-10-07 01:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Alah is not God. Mohammed was no prophet. Alah is Satan, and Mohammed is
also.
TBR
2003-10-07 07:20:48 UTC
Permalink
YOU'RE AN ARSEHOLE.
Post by jim
Alah is not God. Mohammed was no prophet. Alah is Satan, and Mohammed is
also.
jim
2003-10-07 18:21:30 UTC
Permalink
One day you will be on your knees in front of Jesus. You WILL bow before
Him.
Post by TBR
YOU'RE AN ARSEHOLE.
ttt
2003-10-07 18:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim
One day you will be on your knees in front of Jesus. You WILL bow before
Him.
He may get me on my knees in front of him, but I still won't perform
oral sex on him. Goddam catholicks...
h
2003-10-07 19:54:23 UTC
Permalink
nice
Post by ttt
Post by jim
One day you will be on your knees in front of Jesus. You WILL bow before
Him.
He may get me on my knees in front of him, but I still won't perform
oral sex on him. Goddam catholicks...
C.R. Krieger
2003-10-07 14:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awake
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318
*That's* a BMW! ^^^^^
Post by Awake
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
That *was* a BMW! ^^^^^^
Post by Awake
our lying scumbag leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue
That sounds like Chris Bangle!
Post by Awake
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal
I guess that might be some of the New York/New Jersey dealers we hear
about ...
Post by Awake
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002,
*That* was a BMW! ^^^^^
Post by Awake
dossier in September 2002
There it is *again*! ^^^^^^
Post by Awake
His diary entry of March 7, 2002,
Either a *third* '02 or my daughter's fifth birthday. Which is it?

Gee; and here I was afraid this was an off-topic post for
alt.autos.bmw.
--
C.R. Krieger
P.S.: I don't often bother to point out *fuckin' morons*, but this
one, and anyone who seriously responded to *it* deserves special
mention.
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-08 03:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Thank You!!!!
Post by C.R. Krieger
Post by Awake
The death toll for U.S. soldiers is now 318
*That's* a BMW! ^^^^^
Post by Awake
amputees and worse- numbers at over 1500.
That *was* a BMW! ^^^^^^
Post by Awake
our lying scumbag leaders assure us that the quagmire shall continue
That sounds like Chris Bangle!
Post by Awake
The Jews refuse to make peace and continue to steal
I guess that might be some of the New York/New Jersey dealers we hear
about ...
Post by Awake
"At a cabinet meeting in late February 2002,
*That* was a BMW! ^^^^^
Post by Awake
dossier in September 2002
There it is *again*! ^^^^^^
Post by Awake
His diary entry of March 7, 2002,
Either a *third* '02 or my daughter's fifth birthday. Which is it?
Gee; and here I was afraid this was an off-topic post for
alt.autos.bmw.
--
C.R. Krieger
P.S.: I don't often bother to point out *fuckin' morons*, but this
one, and anyone who seriously responded to *it* deserves special
mention.
Joe
2003-10-08 14:07:29 UTC
Permalink
I would like to point out a few things to the poster called 'h' and anyone
else who's interested.

If the United States were really interested in stopping terrorism it would
stop being the leading international sponsor of it. The US funds, supplies,
trains, and recruits thousand of terrorist worldwide, mostly through the
CIA. There are countless examples of US sponsored coups that have killed
democratically elected officials in other countries (an excellent example is
the assassination of President Allende in Chile). This is just one example.
If you would like you can research it and find at least a handful more
examples. Of course killing presidents isn't the only game the US is
involved in. During the Reagan administration the US sponsored a truck bomb
attack against a muslim cleric in Lebanon who was critical of the US. The
bomb killed 250 innocent people while the cleric wasn't even in the mosque.

These activities that the US has engaged in are hypocritical to the guise of
"bringing freedome to Iraq." If the US were really interested in freedom
and democracy then we would promote it, rather than squash it whenever we
think it will interfere with geopolitical domininace.

The attacks of 9/11 are no surprise. For years we have sponsored and
trained terrorist worldwide, for the first time the guns have been turned on
us. We sponsored and trained Bin Laden and the Mujadheen throughout the
1980s. We also funded and provided arms to Iraq throughout the 1980s. In
fact Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that sold Saddam Hussein his
first nuclear reactor. The war on terror and the war against Iraq are all
about geopolitical dominance.

If people are really interested in peace then they can have it. Often it
means taking in that hatred directed at us and giving out our compassion.
We need to have compassion if we are to have peace. Even if our adveraries
hate us with all their hearts, we must be compassionate to them. It is the
only way to open up dialogue, which can lead to peace. War does not lead to
peace, violence only perpetuates more violence, and every religion preaches
this concept. Our hate and violence towards others will only return to us.
However, if we direct peace, compassion, and wisdom towards others, we will
achieve peace.

Thank you for listening,
Joe Braun
Terry
2003-10-08 17:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
I would like to point out a few things to the poster called 'h' and anyone
else who's interested.
If the United States were really interested in stopping terrorism it would
stop being the leading international sponsor of it.
100% agreement here!
Post by Joe
The US funds, supplies,
trains, and recruits thousand of terrorist worldwide, mostly through the
CIA. There are countless examples of US sponsored coups that have killed
democratically elected officials in other countries (an excellent example is
the assassination of President Allende in Chile). This is just one example.
If you would like you can research it and find at least a handful more
examples. Of course killing presidents isn't the only game the US is
involved in. During the Reagan administration the US sponsored a truck bomb
attack against a muslim cleric in Lebanon who was critical of the US. The
bomb killed 250 innocent people while the cleric wasn't even in the mosque.
These activities that the US has engaged in are hypocritical to the guise of
"bringing freedome to Iraq." If the US were really interested in freedom
and democracy then we would promote it, rather than squash it whenever we
think it will interfere with geopolitical domininace.
Agreed. USA cited Iraq was contravening international law and specifically
UN Security Council Resolutions. Well I point out these OTHER UN Security
Council Resolutions that USA simply ignores (proving they are only serving
AMERICAN interests - NOT global interests or interests of democracy):
---
UN Security Council Resolution 50/29 C:

"The Assembly had reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the occupied
Palestinian territory and other Arab territories were illegal and an
obstacle to achieving comprehensive peace. Noting with satisfaction the
return of deportees to the occupied Palestinian territory and calling upon
Israel to facilitate the return of the remainder, it had further called upon
Israel to accelerate the release of all Palestinians arbitrarily detained or
imprisoned, and to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Palestinian
people, pending the extension of the self-government arrangements to the
rest of the West Bank."

Here's another excerpt from the UN website:

Fourth Committee - 4 - Press Release GA/SPD/102 21st Meeting (PM) 25
November 1996 "The other recommendations, the Special Committee appeals to
the Government of Israel to stop establishing and expanding settlements. The
ongoing policy of land confiscation and the construction of bypass roads
should be discontinued, and Arabs in East Jerusalem should not be pressured
to sell their houses to members of the Jewish community. The Government
should refrain from the destruction of property, such as the demolition of
houses"
---
Post by Joe
The attacks of 9/11 are no surprise. For years we have sponsored and
trained terrorist worldwide, for the first time the guns have been turned on
us.
No surprise, but still a horrific action taken by the terrorists. As
Confucious say, "Life travels upwards in spirals - and only by looking back
can we better judge what lay ahead". IOW, this has happened before where
one group or had not only retaliated, but has done so with extreme prejudice
and malice far beyond what was necessary to get it's point across. That bomb
dropped in Japan could have easily been dropped in the ocean near Japan and
accomplished the same thing - the end of the war. But USA wanted to make a
statement - that they are capable.
Post by Joe
We sponsored and trained Bin Laden and the Mujadheen throughout the
1980s. We also funded and provided arms to Iraq throughout the 1980s. In
fact Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that sold Saddam Hussein his
first nuclear reactor. The war on terror and the war against Iraq are all
about geopolitical dominance.
This is a point that is likely wasted here, as nobody looks beyone 9/11 so t
he fact that USA had official relations with Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden
are...well forgotten.
Post by Joe
If people are really interested in peace then they can have it. Often it
means taking in that hatred directed at us and giving out our compassion.
We need to have compassion if we are to have peace. Even if our adveraries
hate us with all their hearts, we must be compassionate to them. It is the
only way to open up dialogue, which can lead to peace. War does not lead to
peace, violence only perpetuates more violence, and every religion preaches
this concept. Our hate and violence towards others will only return to us.
However, if we direct peace, compassion, and wisdom towards others, we will
achieve peace.
All very true. But whereas the world agrees, Americans see this as an
attack in itself, against USA.

The arrogance has to leave Americans' hearts. Compassion has to take its
place.
Post by Joe
Thank you for listening,
Joe Braun
Joe
2003-10-08 22:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Its too bad this country's short and long term memory don't hold. But media
broadcast is another subject.

Thanks for the kind words. The two UN violations you site are but a
fraction of the hundreds of treaties and mandates our leaders ignore.

Joe
Post by Terry
Post by Joe
I would like to point out a few things to the poster called 'h' and anyone
else who's interested.
If the United States were really interested in stopping terrorism it would
stop being the leading international sponsor of it.
100% agreement here!
Post by Joe
The US funds, supplies,
trains, and recruits thousand of terrorist worldwide, mostly through the
CIA. There are countless examples of US sponsored coups that have killed
democratically elected officials in other countries (an excellent
example
Post by Terry
is
Post by Joe
the assassination of President Allende in Chile). This is just one
example.
Post by Joe
If you would like you can research it and find at least a handful more
examples. Of course killing presidents isn't the only game the US is
involved in. During the Reagan administration the US sponsored a truck
bomb
Post by Joe
attack against a muslim cleric in Lebanon who was critical of the US.
The
Post by Terry
Post by Joe
bomb killed 250 innocent people while the cleric wasn't even in the
mosque.
Post by Joe
These activities that the US has engaged in are hypocritical to the
guise
Post by Terry
of
Post by Joe
"bringing freedome to Iraq." If the US were really interested in freedom
and democracy then we would promote it, rather than squash it whenever we
think it will interfere with geopolitical domininace.
Agreed. USA cited Iraq was contravening international law and
specifically
Post by Terry
UN Security Council Resolutions. Well I point out these OTHER UN Security
Council Resolutions that USA simply ignores (proving they are only serving
---
"The Assembly had reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the occupied
Palestinian territory and other Arab territories were illegal and an
obstacle to achieving comprehensive peace. Noting with satisfaction the
return of deportees to the occupied Palestinian territory and calling upon
Israel to facilitate the return of the remainder, it had further called upon
Israel to accelerate the release of all Palestinians arbitrarily detained or
imprisoned, and to respect the fundamental freedoms of the Palestinian
people, pending the extension of the self-government arrangements to the
rest of the West Bank."
Fourth Committee - 4 - Press Release GA/SPD/102 21st Meeting (PM) 25
November 1996 "The other recommendations, the Special Committee appeals to
the Government of Israel to stop establishing and expanding settlements. The
ongoing policy of land confiscation and the construction of bypass roads
should be discontinued, and Arabs in East Jerusalem should not be pressured
to sell their houses to members of the Jewish community. The Government
should refrain from the destruction of property, such as the demolition of
houses"
---
Post by Joe
The attacks of 9/11 are no surprise. For years we have sponsored and
trained terrorist worldwide, for the first time the guns have been
turned
Post by Terry
on
Post by Joe
us.
No surprise, but still a horrific action taken by the terrorists. As
Confucious say, "Life travels upwards in spirals - and only by looking back
can we better judge what lay ahead". IOW, this has happened before where
one group or had not only retaliated, but has done so with extreme prejudice
and malice far beyond what was necessary to get it's point across. That bomb
dropped in Japan could have easily been dropped in the ocean near Japan and
accomplished the same thing - the end of the war. But USA wanted to make a
statement - that they are capable.
Post by Joe
We sponsored and trained Bin Laden and the Mujadheen throughout the
1980s. We also funded and provided arms to Iraq throughout the 1980s.
In
Post by Terry
Post by Joe
fact Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that sold Saddam Hussein
his
Post by Joe
first nuclear reactor. The war on terror and the war against Iraq are all
about geopolitical dominance.
This is a point that is likely wasted here, as nobody looks beyone 9/11 so t
he fact that USA had official relations with Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden
are...well forgotten.
Post by Joe
If people are really interested in peace then they can have it. Often it
means taking in that hatred directed at us and giving out our compassion.
We need to have compassion if we are to have peace. Even if our
adveraries
Post by Joe
hate us with all their hearts, we must be compassionate to them. It is
the
Post by Joe
only way to open up dialogue, which can lead to peace. War does not
lead
Post by Terry
to
Post by Joe
peace, violence only perpetuates more violence, and every religion
preaches
Post by Joe
this concept. Our hate and violence towards others will only return to
us.
Post by Joe
However, if we direct peace, compassion, and wisdom towards others, we
will
Post by Joe
achieve peace.
All very true. But whereas the world agrees, Americans see this as an
attack in itself, against USA.
The arrogance has to leave Americans' hearts. Compassion has to take its
place.
Post by Joe
Thank you for listening,
Joe Braun
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-09 00:33:15 UTC
Permalink
The real lie here is that people like this want us to ignore the decades of
slavery 25 million Iraqi's suffered under the murderous heel of Saddam
Hussein. They want us to ignore the thousands of Iraqis, Iranians & Kuwaitis
he killed. They want us to ignore mass murderers like the Taliban & other
"noble freedom fighters" like the Castros & the Sandanistas and other thugs
because the bloody, bestial truth doesn't fit into their pacifist "citizens
of the world" framework of Socialist dogma & fancy.

You IDIOT, how many mass graves must be exhumed? How many incredible acts of
barbarism would it have taken for you leftist, pacifist morons to realize
that NO ONE was ever going to free these people from this madman if America,
Britain and their allies didn't act.

Who gives a shit about the UN, or the WMDs or any of the rest of your you
hallucinatory spewing called the "lies of Bush"? Where were your gallant
champions of human rights when Hussein gassed his own, when Milosevic's
thugs killed en masse, when the Rwandan's begged for help and got none?
That's right, shithead, at your precious UN doing nothing! Ask a Rwandan
who's family was slaughtered while the UN troops ran away, ask them how much
help they got from the Europeans, the UN, or even Clinton's leftist America.

Get a life, you idiot!
Post by Joe
I would like to point out a few things to the poster called 'h' and anyone
else who's interested.
If the United States were really interested in stopping terrorism it would
stop being the leading international sponsor of it. The US funds, supplies,
trains, and recruits thousand of terrorist worldwide, mostly through the
CIA. There are countless examples of US sponsored coups that have killed
democratically elected officials in other countries (an excellent example is
the assassination of President Allende in Chile). This is just one example.
If you would like you can research it and find at least a handful more
examples. Of course killing presidents isn't the only game the US is
involved in. During the Reagan administration the US sponsored a truck bomb
attack against a muslim cleric in Lebanon who was critical of the US. The
bomb killed 250 innocent people while the cleric wasn't even in the mosque.
These activities that the US has engaged in are hypocritical to the guise of
"bringing freedome to Iraq." If the US were really interested in freedom
and democracy then we would promote it, rather than squash it whenever we
think it will interfere with geopolitical domininace.
The attacks of 9/11 are no surprise. For years we have sponsored and
trained terrorist worldwide, for the first time the guns have been turned on
us. We sponsored and trained Bin Laden and the Mujadheen throughout the
1980s. We also funded and provided arms to Iraq throughout the 1980s. In
fact Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO of the company that sold Saddam Hussein his
first nuclear reactor. The war on terror and the war against Iraq are all
about geopolitical dominance.
If people are really interested in peace then they can have it. Often it
means taking in that hatred directed at us and giving out our compassion.
We need to have compassion if we are to have peace. Even if our adveraries
hate us with all their hearts, we must be compassionate to them. It is the
only way to open up dialogue, which can lead to peace. War does not lead to
peace, violence only perpetuates more violence, and every religion preaches
this concept. Our hate and violence towards others will only return to us.
However, if we direct peace, compassion, and wisdom towards others, we will
achieve peace.
Thank you for listening,
Joe Braun
MusicMax
2003-10-09 02:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
The real lie here is that people like this want us to ignore the
decades of slavery 25 million Iraqi's suffered under the murderous
heel of Saddam Hussein. They want us to ignore the thousands of
Iraqis, Iranians & Kuwaitis he killed. They want us to ignore mass
murderers like the Taliban & other "noble freedom fighters" like the
Castros & the Sandanistas and other thugs because the bloody, bestial
truth doesn't fit into their pacifist "citizens of the world"
framework of Socialist dogma & fancy.
First off, I'm a Libertarian, the opposite of a Socialist (Socialists
promote things like taxpayer-funded prescription drugs).

None of the situations you mention have ONE SINGLE THING to do with the
United States (except of course that your tax dollars at one time or
another funded most of them). The list of countries that Congress is
authorized to defend in the Constitution begins and ends with THE UNITED
STATES.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
You IDIOT, how many mass graves must be exhumed? How many incredible
acts of barbarism would it have taken for you leftist, pacifist morons
to realize that NO ONE was ever going to free these people from this
madman if America, Britain and their allies didn't act.
If your position had any credence, we'd have gone after Stalin and Mao.
Of course, those would have been wars of equals, rather than the insane
dick-measuring contests conducted by the likes of LBJ, Reagan, Bush
pere, Clinton and Bush fils.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Who gives a shit about the UN, or the WMDs or any of the rest of your
you hallucinatory spewing called the "lies of Bush"?
The Iraq campaign has not had no relevance to "providing for the common
defense of the United States". And America's post-9/11 actions have
killed more civilians than 9/11 itself. As Kevin Bacon said, these are
the facts, and they are not in dispute.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Where were your gallant
champions of human rights when Hussein gassed his own,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when Milosevic's
thugs killed en masse,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when the Rwandan's begged for help and got none?
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
That's right, shithead, at your precious UN doing nothing! Ask a
Rwandan who's family was slaughtered while the UN troops ran away, ask
them how much help they got from the Europeans, the UN, or even
Clinton's leftist America.
Clinton was too busy supervising the killing of Americans in Somalia,
Kosovo, Waco, Bosnia, etc. etc. etc.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Get a life, you idiot!
As usual, far too high a ratio of ad hominem to thought.

p
l
o
n
k
Joe
2003-10-09 02:25:28 UTC
Permalink
While I am not a libertarian, I agree with your policy on defense spending.

I think the United States can promote world peace by recalling all its
troops worldwide, place them on our borders, and cut defense spending by
100s of billions of dollars.

Peace,
Joe Braun
Post by MusicMax
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
The real lie here is that people like this want us to ignore the
decades of slavery 25 million Iraqi's suffered under the murderous
heel of Saddam Hussein. They want us to ignore the thousands of
Iraqis, Iranians & Kuwaitis he killed. They want us to ignore mass
murderers like the Taliban & other "noble freedom fighters" like the
Castros & the Sandanistas and other thugs because the bloody, bestial
truth doesn't fit into their pacifist "citizens of the world"
framework of Socialist dogma & fancy.
First off, I'm a Libertarian, the opposite of a Socialist (Socialists
promote things like taxpayer-funded prescription drugs).
None of the situations you mention have ONE SINGLE THING to do with the
United States (except of course that your tax dollars at one time or
another funded most of them). The list of countries that Congress is
authorized to defend in the Constitution begins and ends with THE UNITED
STATES.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
You IDIOT, how many mass graves must be exhumed? How many incredible
acts of barbarism would it have taken for you leftist, pacifist morons
to realize that NO ONE was ever going to free these people from this
madman if America, Britain and their allies didn't act.
If your position had any credence, we'd have gone after Stalin and Mao.
Of course, those would have been wars of equals, rather than the insane
dick-measuring contests conducted by the likes of LBJ, Reagan, Bush
pere, Clinton and Bush fils.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Who gives a shit about the UN, or the WMDs or any of the rest of your
you hallucinatory spewing called the "lies of Bush"?
The Iraq campaign has not had no relevance to "providing for the common
defense of the United States". And America's post-9/11 actions have
killed more civilians than 9/11 itself. As Kevin Bacon said, these are
the facts, and they are not in dispute.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Where were your gallant
champions of human rights when Hussein gassed his own,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when Milosevic's
thugs killed en masse,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when the Rwandan's begged for help and got none?
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
That's right, shithead, at your precious UN doing nothing! Ask a
Rwandan who's family was slaughtered while the UN troops ran away, ask
them how much help they got from the Europeans, the UN, or even
Clinton's leftist America.
Clinton was too busy supervising the killing of Americans in Somalia,
Kosovo, Waco, Bosnia, etc. etc. etc.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Get a life, you idiot!
As usual, far too high a ratio of ad hominem to thought.
p
l
o
n
k
h
2003-10-09 09:06:49 UTC
Permalink
well it looks like the only thing that Max has learned here is 'PLONK'.
Post by MusicMax
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
The real lie here is that people like this want us to ignore the
decades of slavery 25 million Iraqi's suffered under the murderous
heel of Saddam Hussein. They want us to ignore the thousands of
Iraqis, Iranians & Kuwaitis he killed. They want us to ignore mass
murderers like the Taliban & other "noble freedom fighters" like the
Castros & the Sandanistas and other thugs because the bloody, bestial
truth doesn't fit into their pacifist "citizens of the world"
framework of Socialist dogma & fancy.
First off, I'm a Libertarian, the opposite of a Socialist (Socialists
promote things like taxpayer-funded prescription drugs).
None of the situations you mention have ONE SINGLE THING to do with the
United States (except of course that your tax dollars at one time or
another funded most of them). The list of countries that Congress is
authorized to defend in the Constitution begins and ends with THE UNITED
STATES.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
You IDIOT, how many mass graves must be exhumed? How many incredible
acts of barbarism would it have taken for you leftist, pacifist morons
to realize that NO ONE was ever going to free these people from this
madman if America, Britain and their allies didn't act.
If your position had any credence, we'd have gone after Stalin and Mao.
Of course, those would have been wars of equals, rather than the insane
dick-measuring contests conducted by the likes of LBJ, Reagan, Bush
pere, Clinton and Bush fils.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Who gives a shit about the UN, or the WMDs or any of the rest of your
you hallucinatory spewing called the "lies of Bush"?
The Iraq campaign has not had no relevance to "providing for the common
defense of the United States". And America's post-9/11 actions have
killed more civilians than 9/11 itself. As Kevin Bacon said, these are
the facts, and they are not in dispute.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Where were your gallant
champions of human rights when Hussein gassed his own,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when Milosevic's
thugs killed en masse,
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
when the Rwandan's begged for help and got none?
Reading the Constitution.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
That's right, shithead, at your precious UN doing nothing! Ask a
Rwandan who's family was slaughtered while the UN troops ran away, ask
them how much help they got from the Europeans, the UN, or even
Clinton's leftist America.
Clinton was too busy supervising the killing of Americans in Somalia,
Kosovo, Waco, Bosnia, etc. etc. etc.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Get a life, you idiot!
As usual, far too high a ratio of ad hominem to thought.
p
l
o
n
k
Joe
2003-10-09 02:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Who gives a shit about the UN, or the WMDs or any of the rest of your you
hallucinatory spewing called the "lies of Bush"? Where were your gallant
champions of human rights when Hussein gassed his own, when Milosevic's
thugs killed en masse, when the Rwandan's begged for help and got none?
That's right, shithead, at your precious UN doing nothing! Ask a Rwandan
who's family was slaughtered while the UN troops ran away, ask them how much
help they got from the Europeans, the UN, or even Clinton's leftist America.
Get a life, you idiot!
Actually when Hussein gassed the Kurds we voted down a UN resolution that
would have condemned the act. The US did not see it fit to call the acts
crimes against humanity. In fact most of the mass graves that Saddam was
responsible for were made while we were sponsoring him with weapons and
funding. How do you answer to these truths? How can you say that I am
ignoring the deaths of Iraqis when the US is responsible for keeping the
dictator in power. I don't agree with Saddam Hussein's policy, but I also
don't agree with the US's.

I don't know how you can ignore the past actions of the US. Why was it okay
for us to sponsor Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, but now it is time
to remove him? How about the CIA sponsored coups in Guatemala, Haiti,
Nicaragua, Chile, and the rest of the South American countries that have
left those nations in the hands of dictators and brutal tyrants. Tell me
what justifies our actions there? I still have yet to hear a good answer to
that question.

Joe Braun
Gerald G. McGeorge
2003-10-09 04:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Actually when Hussein gassed the Kurds we voted down a UN resolution that
would have condemned the act. The US did not see it fit to call the acts
crimes against humanity. <
Bullshit, the US LED the UN in condemning Husseins actions.
Post by Joe
In fact most of the mass graves that Saddam was
responsible for were made while we were sponsoring him with weapons and
funding.<


You moron, the Soviets and the French provided ALL of his weapons!
Post by Joe
How do you answer to these truths? <
Because they're typical leftist LIES!!!!!
Post by Joe
How can you say that I am ignoring the deaths of Iraqis when the US is
responsible for keeping the dictator in power. <

Are you just a brain-dead ignorant fool? The Arabs and his buddies the
French & Russians funded the killer and proped him up repeatedly, ignored
and appolgized repeatedly for his refusal to comply with UN resolutions.
Post by Joe
I don't agree with Saddam Hussein's policy, ....
"Policy????? POLICY???? Killing his own people was a POLICY??? What kind of
ignorant moron are you?
Boy, Lenin would have loved to have YOU on his side!!!!!
Post by Joe
I don't know how you can ignore the past actions of the US. Why was it
okay for us to sponsor Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 1980s, but now it is
time to remove him? <

Who gives flying f%ck about the 80's??? YES, it's time for the murdering
scum pile of crap to be DEAD!!!!! Dead before he has a chance to kill YOU
AND YOUR FAMILY in the name of some stupid Jihad!
Post by Joe
How about the CIA sponsored coups in Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Chile,
and the rest of the South American countries that have left those nations in
the hands of dictators and brutal tyrants. <

How about the minute the Nicaraguans had a chance to vote they threw your
leftist Sandanista heroes out on their Commie ASSES! Even Jimmy Carter
monitored the and certified the election. Bt, I gues in your anti-American
world those poor Nicarguans were too ignorant to understand what they were
voting for, huh, just like the dumb asses in Floroda couldn't understand a
ballot.
Post by Joe
Tell me what justifies our actions there? I still have yet to hear a good
answer to that question. <

How about giving 25 million Iraqis a CHANCE at the same freedom that allows
you to spew this leftist nonsense without risk!
Joe
2003-10-09 13:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
Post by Joe
Actually when Hussein gassed the Kurds we voted down a UN resolution that
would have condemned the act. The US did not see it fit to call the acts
crimes against humanity. <
Bullshit, the US LED the UN in condemning Husseins actions.
Go look at the records. I challenge you to do that. I am not making this
up. George Bush Sr did not want the US to condemn the actions. Go look in
back issues of the journal Foreign Affairs. The matter didn't receive much
mainstream press but it is on public record.
Post by Gerald G. McGeorge
You moron, the Soviets and the French provided ALL of his weapons!
Actually we supplied Iraq with weapons during the Iran-Iraq conflict. Again
its on public record. This was more reported in the mainstream press. When
a country sends "military aid" to countries it is in the form of money to
buy weapons, weapons, or both. Donald Rumsfeld's company supplied the
nuclear reactor that Saddam was using. Several other US companies supplied
biological agents for biowarfare.

Unless you are willing to cut through the lies in the air and look at the
truth then you will be ignorant. I feel great empathy for you, we have all
been ignorant at some point in our lives. Go and get a subscription to
Foreign Affairs, look through the old Wall Street Journals, all of this
information that you say is lies is in the press and on public record.

This war has nothing to do with freedom. Its about US dominance in
geopolitical strategy.

Ask yourself a question as a human being. Is it okay to kill anyone? If it
is not, how do we justify killing people in other countries. There are
other ways to solve our disputes without war or violence.

Peace my friend,
Joe

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